TWS2 RPG Discussion Thread

[Zim]

I was worried the DLC might make a difference as far as savegame compatibility. We could test it if there's someone around who has some dlc content.

I've been avoiding getting any for fear of messing up mod versus mod so that's three of us with vanilla TWS2 at least (assuming Phonics were interested).

[phonicsmonkey]

I'm in! I don't have any DLCs..

[Cecil XIX]

The reason Empire and Napoleon have no presence here has a lot to due with their poor reception, I'd imagine. I don't think a game using Shogun 2 would have that problem.

The biggest problem is that Shogun 2 gives you the fewest generals of any TW game to date. I think allowing characters to roleplay as agents is essential in this regard. My experience is that agents don't die as often either, which is helpful. Another thing we should consider is allowing players without avatars to fight battles as Captains, or whatever they're called. I don't know if their names change as constantly as they did in RTW/M2TW, but if they did it would probably be best to see who's interested in playing a Captain, then choosing randomly since they'd be no IC info to base the decision off of. Alternatively, if people were roleplaying characters that didn't exist in game, we could send them to the captain as a sort of military liaison to justify having them play the battle.

There's a benefit that's almost as big though: The game let's you choose the heir! This gives the succession disputes the chance to be deadly serious, which would be a lot of fun! Another thing to consider it is giving the four commissioners powers in the rules, and allowing the Daimyo to appoint commissioners even if there aren't enough generals in the game. The bonus the commissioners give suggest their powers:

• Commissioner for Warfare - Recruits military units
• Commissioner for Supply - Directs reinforcements
• Commissioner for Finance - Determines tax rates and exemptions
• Commissioner for Develop - Approves all construction

We have to fine tune the balance of power between them and the Daimyo, but I think it could really pay off.

Anyway, I'd certainly jump into a Shogun 2 RPG as soon as it was announced.

[Zim]

I hadn't even thought of that (Phonics and my generals die so often in Mod vs Mod I'm guessing neither of us has gotten to use all of the titles at once ).

Who would determine how to divide koku between military and construction purposes? Maybe the Daimyo?

[phonicsmonkey]

I hadn't even thought of that (Phonics and my generals die so often in Mod vs Mod I'm guessing neither of us has gotten to use all of the titles at once ).

Who would determine how to divide koku between military and construction purposes? Maybe the Daimyo?

Or the chief metsuke?

[Nigel]

Or the Commissioner of Warfare and the Commisioner of Development will have to present their budget wishes and argue their cases. Then the Daimyo makes the decision. Or there could then be a vote between Chief Metsuke / Commisioner for Finance / Daimyo on who gets his wish and who gets what is left over.

In any case this sounds very interesting. Count me in.
I have S2TW, vanilla version without any DLC so far.

[Zim]

It's heartening to see that there's a lot of interest in a TWS2 RPG. I changed the thread title to reflect a change in subject from whether the new game would work for an RPG to how we're going to make it work.

If everyone is willing I would gladly work on a ruleset and gm a TWS2 rpg.

I like Cecil's idea to include the game's commissioner titles in the RPG and thoughts on their abilities (and suggestion that non generals should be able to get the titles). I'd like to share an idea about their implementation, particularly who has final say on money spent.

• Commissioner for Warfare - Recruits military units
• Commissioner for Supply - Directs reinforcements
• Commissioner for Finance - Determines tax rates and exemptions
• Commissioner for Develop - Approves all construction

So we have the Finance Commissioner who controls the available pool of money by controlling taxes and the Commissioners of Warfare and Development who between them control recruitment and construction. I'm wondering if the Commissioner of Supply might, in addition to moving troops around to join stacks, might be the guy who decides what exactly is built and ends the turn. The Commissioners of Warfare and Development give lists to him. The Supply Commissioner chooses which parts of the lists to fulfill (and can prioritize the lists or just not build anything) or can choose not to spend the money but can't recruit or build outside the lists. He also moves unled armies and ends the turn. Maybe the Daimyo can give a separate list for his capital city that must be fulfilled before the others.

So the balance is that the Finance guy controls the flow of money by picking tax rates, the Warfare and Development Commissioners control what can be built, and the Development guy controls what does get built with the resources and lists the other Commissioners give him.

This makes these four guys pretty powerful, which begs the question of how to handle their appointment. In-game you can appoint them and strip them of the title as often as you want. Do we want to limit this ability the Daimyo would have? Only let him name a new one every ten turns, or make 1 or more a position that's voted for?

Another subject Phonics was talking to me about was agents. He had the idea of making the first of each type of agent the Head ____ (ninja, etc.). I like this idea, especially as many players are likely to be agents but we'll need to think about what powers these titles should have if we're using them.

On a more general subject is how to structure the game. Previous rpgs here used MTW2 or RTW as their base (often with a mod). TWS2 is such a different game that even if we made a conscious decision to use the older games as a guide a lot of things are likely to end up very different by the time we modify them to fit TWS2. An example is the strong likelihood of more agent than general characters. In other RPG here there is generally a royal family that may be stronger or weaker, at least one strong elected role (Many times combining powers we're discussing giving the Comissioners, sometimes minus one or two), and a lot of general characters with some type of geographically based power (Duchies, Houses, etc.).

To me a TWS2 game seems likely to be somewhat more centralized, and few titles being geographically based. I'd like to see voting continue (with players being advisors to the Daimyo whose power derives from influence with the samurai that keep things running), with influence bonuses for certain titles or the ranks all generals and agents have that seem ready made for this type of thing. Also we'll need a lot of focus on incorporating agent characters. Generals can fight battles, marry into the Daimyo's family, become heir. Captains can fight battles and aspire to getting a generalship offer after a battle. What makes me want to play the faction's third ninja? Eligibility for Commissioner positions and the extra character given in this game through choosing ancillaries and abilities as you advance help, but I wonder if more is needed.

[phonicsmonkey]

To expand a little on my agents idea.

I would say the first of each type of agent would be Head. Until that one dies and is replaced by the next highest level agent, with order of recruitment being the tie breaker.

The Head Ninja (call him Shinobi?) could report directly to the Daimyo who would have the power to direct all ninja activities for a given turn. If no specific orders are given by the Daimyo (and 'take no action' is an order) then the Head Ninja has discretion. The other ninjas do what the Head Ninja tells them unless there are no orders in which case they can do as they please (perhaps with restrictions around action against clans which are not enemies).

The Head Metsuke could report to the Commissioner for Finance who would have the power to direct which cities metsuke are to oversee (except in the case of no orders etc.). Except in wartime when the Commissioner for Warfare gets to appeal to the Daimyo for the release of specific metsuke to travel with armies or apprehend enemy agents. They would then be his to control until the Commissioner for Finance (or Head Metsuke) successfully appeals to the Daimyo for their release back to oversee towns.

I'm thinking the Monks could be an independent force and report to no-one (except the Head Monk).

Maybe only the Heads of each agency get to be in the running for Commissions? Or maybe they can only be eligible for certain Commissions? Like Ninja = warfare and supply, Metsuke = finance, development and supply and Monk = warfare and finance?

Just a few ill-formed ideas. Agents have the potential to be extremely valuable to the faction. A high-level ninja is worth a few armies. So it gives an incentive for people to court the favour of the Head Ninja so he can (in the absense of over-riding orders from the Daimyo) clear the way for their armies and generally help them out - you pat my back etc.

I like the idea of Commissioners being elected but with an influence-based vote so the Daimyo effectively dominates unless everyone else is against him.