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Thread: Most difficult faction?

  1. #1

    Default Most difficult faction?

    Just wondering what everyone thinks is the most difficult faction to play. I'm guessing a lot of people will say Oda, and I agree that they are slightly difficult, but I don't think they're the most difficult.

    In my opinion, I want to say Uesugi is the hardest to play, and then maybe Ikko Ikki behind them. I say Uesugi because I think they have a terrible starting location compared to Oda or Tokugawa. Where Oda has many easy expansion opportunuities close by, Uesugi have to go a long way to find one (Jinbo being the most obvious, but that's 2-3 turns away). Honma can be taken, but if you take too long, and with no reason for them to ever go anywhere since they're on an island, it becomes a battle with some massive stack of defending units. Let's also take into consideration that Takeda is almost always a powerhouse and are almost always in direct conflict, or shortly will be, with Uesugi. The only other avenue of expansion, aside from Jinbo and Takeda (who almost first-turns North Shinano in every game I play), is through your vassal, which isn't necessarily a good idea. Taking them opens you up to more enemies, and capturing anything beyond that when letting them live separates your lands and makes them that much harder to defend (as if that really long starting province wasn't bad enough).

    Additionally, the bonuses of Uesugi are arguably not that great. Warrior Monks are expensive. I like to use them because they're kind of neat, but their bonuses are outshined by their lack of defense - I'd actually be interested in seeing how they fair in a toe-to-toe match with a similar unit, just for posterity... though I still doubt they're really worth that much more cost. The trade income bonus is negligent until late game, but is only compounded by the fact that 80% of the trade locations are on the other side of the map completely and a pain for them to get to.

    Maybe it's just me, but I've always found Oda or Tokugawa relatively easy, because it's a lot more straightforward and takes less time to get anywhere. Their biggest disadvantage could easily be their advantage - they have plenty of routes to go for expansion, which makes becoming a formidable power relatively quick and easy.

    On the other hand, I say Ikko Ikki next just because they suffer from a lack of samurai units, metsuke and a differing religion. Their advantages aren't really that advantageous.
    Last edited by Madae; 09-22-2011 at 17:03.

  2. #2
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    I always thought Takeda would be a tough one, being right in the center of things and with a bonus for a unit type that's a little weak in TWS2. Oda have one back to the sea if I remember correctly and a great bonus given how useful ashigaru are in this game.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    I've never played Takeda, so I can't comment accurately on how difficult they are - but I can say that in 100% of the games I play, they are the largest and most powerful faction in the early game. Unless I come into direct conflict with them at some point, leaving them to their own devices always makes them the most powerful NPC faction. This undoubtedly has a lot to do with their cavalry bonuses. A charge from a lot of horses has always been very powerful (in history and in these games). Regardless if they run into spears, a bunch of horses will cause just about any unit to break relatively quickly, and that's often all it takes to win a battle through chain morale failure.

    Light Cavalry are powerful in their own right - for chasing down units and flank-charging the enemy. Being able to do it from the front with yari cavalry, and their added bonuses to attack and defense, along with their comparable mobility to light cavalry, makes them pretty damn good on the whole. Not to mention that there are more men in a samurai cavalry unit than light cavalry... AND they can dismount, so they can easily fill multiple roles in addition to being quick and sturdy.

    I've honestly never thought that the cavalry were weak in this game. I rarely build them because they require more buildings than infantry, but I will always have at least 3-4 units of light cavalry (or just cavalry in general- 2 generals and 2 light cavalry or some other combo) for what they bring to the table. They can't hold up in a straight fight to infantry, being outnumbered and all that, but they're definitely not useless or underpowered.

    And yeah, the start disadvantages to the Oda are well than made up for if you add in their bonuses to Ashigaru. Frankly, I've always thought Oda was one of the easier factions because of that. With that lowered cost, you can field larger armies and leave larger garrisons in towns for defense. I won't make full samurai armies until very late in the game, as I like to have a nice large unit of ashigaru handy for quick reinforcement. They really aren't bad units when they have enough experience.
    Last edited by Madae; 09-22-2011 at 18:15.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    The problem with the Oda are getting through the first few turns/years. I rarely play them since I look for a somewhat easier start and harder finish (relatively speaking) whereas they have the opposite. Just about whenever the AI Oda survive the first years they become a force to be reckoned with.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    The Mori are difficult.The Oda are difficult,and the Date are hard as well.

    The Takeda are easy.

  6. #6
    King of kemet Member Hamata's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    that's coming frome you takeda when i was playing as the tekada the emenemy blitzkreg me right away

  7. #7
    Member Member jepp21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    The easiets factions are Date, Shimazu and perhapd the Mori. I think we can all agree on that perhaps?

    The hardest factions are The Hattori (they reach realm divide in like no turns), the Tokugawa (being a vassal sucks, aswell as having other powerfull clans 1 turn away), and the Uesugi (starting location, crap diplomacy becomes your doom)

  8. #8

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by jepp21 View Post
    The easiets factions are Date, Shimazu and perhapd the Mori. I think we can all agree on that perhaps?

    The hardest factions are The Hattori (they reach realm divide in like no turns), the Tokugawa (being a vassal sucks, aswell as having other powerfull clans 1 turn away), and the Uesugi (starting location, crap diplomacy becomes your doom)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pharoah View Post
    that's coming frome you takeda when i was playing as the tekada the emenemy blitzkreg me right away
    Nope,they are hard.

  9. #9
    King of kemet Member Hamata's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    well right now i'd have to say the easist faction in the game is the honma.


    ps i am using the all factions play able mod

  10. #10

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    I wouldn't say Oda, they were my first successful campaign, and while the first few turns as them are an absolute nightmare, and the diplomatic penalty is annoying, things are normally okay once you've got a foothold.

    And Tokugawa is basically the same, once Imagawa and Oda are gone.

    Uesugi can be ridiculously difficult. Takeda turns into a terrifying beast pretty quickly so you're required to keep good relations with them, but they almost always seem to slip up and get whittled down to 1 or 2 provinces by another clan soon after that, so you find yourself thrown into a horrible new mess against the other clan and its allies as they suddenly become powerful. Also, your starting position is deceptively awful.

    Maybe it's just because I'm not very familiar with Total War games in general, but I always end up being ganged up on and squashed as Uesugi, you definitely can't expand as quickly as you can as other clans. Even though playing Uesugi irritates me, I still find the challenge fun.

    EDIT: Oh well, I just beat their campaign. That was still the hardest thing I've ever done on a strategy game, though.
    Last edited by Conkercorner; 10-31-2011 at 20:06.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout View Post
    The Mori are difficult.The Oda are difficult,and the Date are hard as well.

    The Takeda are easy.
    I picked Mori as my first (except a few turns with the Shiz clan). Found em to be pretty ok, was thinking to get Takeda next, but maybe Oda then would be the worst?

  12. #12
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    Welcome to the .Org Tixan

    Regarding the Oda, don't turn your nose at their Ashigaru -- you can easily hold your domain against the most vicious AI opponents by creating army corps comprised of Oda Ashis up to ~80%. This perk trivializes their conquest of Japan a great deal.
    Last edited by Nowake; 11-04-2011 at 18:32. Reason: Typo


  13. #13
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    The Oda are a favorite of mine. I love super peasants and that they go against the Samurai elitists. Their opening game is difficult and relies on some luck; However, their strategic position gives them easy access to Kyoto and when I played them I became incredibly wealthy. Focusing on a peasant army core allowed me to research Chi arts leading to a great diplomatic game. I held off realm divide until the end because I was so happy with the diplomatic situation.


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  14. #14

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    I have played Oda several times. Diplomatic situation is much depending on luck. Sometime i had war with every faction, some time i could choose my opponents, like in my last game, till a insignificant battle triggered realm divide (in incredible circumstances).
    So sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's hard and sometimes it's very easy.

  15. #15
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    Oda, and it all boils to luck. Tokugawa too.

    Uesugi is sheltered and Echigo is a gold mine in every aspect when it comes to economy. Ports, farms, roads, easy access to trade nodes.
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    Handler of candles Member Xehh II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    So far, I've played as Shimazu, Date, Chosokabe, Uesugi and Tokugawa. I'd say for me Tokugawa and Uesugi were the hardest, well my tokugawa campaign is actually still going but it's not easy. For easiest I'd have to definitley say Date.
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  17. #17
    Member Member Jarmam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    Easiest is obviously Chosokabe, but discounting this pseudo-faction I'd say Oda is the easiest faction (made a bit harder with the fix to the -20 diplomacy trait, but this didnt bother me too much, clans will ally with you out of necessity if you choose your partners correctly and your early game is such a joke that you dont even need allies that much) followed by Shimazu and then Date (due to their starting positions mixed with speciality mixed with blacksmiths off the bat - all 3 are areas where Shimazu is slightly better off). Then it gets hazy. Uesugi can be a bear but they arent that hard once you get the hang of it - I disagree that expanding with them is hard, you just have to have a lean, crisp 5-6 turn opening targeting Homna instantly and once this succeeds you can fend off Takeda easily while expanding eastwards. Monks are also brutal as all hell in the lategame - apart from Choso's Sniperkyo Samurai Archers, Bow Monks are my most feared enemies and War Cry scares me more than Giger's worst nightmares.

    Takeda can be between troublesome and ghoulish and, before the Loan Swords, Ikko could be a nightmare. Now its just hard, prolly cuz it takes such a different approach to play the faction correctly. I havent played Hojo yet (boring specialization and they start in the same area as 3 other factions start, zzz) so cant say about those guys, but I would label Mori as being the toughest out of a personal disgust for non-cannon based naval warfare and a mediocre starting area. I guess you could just abandon your starting area entirely (its worthless), take Chosokabe's island and play as Choso with better nanban "trade" ships, but apart from this method I struggled the most with Mori. Well... if you autoresolve constantly on Legendary, you *will* lose, and I cannot be arsed to use the bloody ships in combat, so this might be my problem. I will probably settle on Ikko due to being poor at playing the faction, or Hojo due to their general worthlessness.

    Tokugawa can be pretty brutal but if you dont care about being a Vassal you can completely ignore the southern border, which lets you blitz the Hattori nutjobs (who will declare war on you in a bilisecond so the ability to declare war is not one you will miss - they'll find you anyway), and if this succeeds, Tokugawa is a cakewalk. The ninja provinces are hard to assault, but easy to hold once you have the whole Kyoto-area up to Hatano, and the income from Burakumin villages is ludicrous. I think I stayed a Vassal for 90ish turns and just riced up my provinces until I could field 3 deathballs of high tech fully upgraded units from Ikko's archer/blacksmith starting provinces. Thanks, Imagawa, for your loyal protection - idiot. From there I just toyed around and tested the game out, it was my first real campaign and I couldnt know that Geisha and Kisho ninja are practically worthless.
    Last edited by Gregoshi; 11-08-2011 at 02:42. Reason: Applied some language softener.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    Well it definitely isn't the Shimazu or Chosakabe. I have found all of the other clans reasonably hard, I haven't spent a lot of time playing the campaign though. I find multiplayer much more interesting.

  19. #19
    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    I've always found the Oda relatively easy. Date are hard initially imo.

  20. #20
    Member Member sassbarman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    At the risk of sounding like a jerk I have managed to win with every clan on legendary with the exception of the ikko ikki and the uesugi. For the reasons already mentioned above they are the two hardest clans to play hands down.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    The Oda are quite easy. Do not forget to constantly recruit ashigaru units. Theirs are superior in quality to the ashis of the other factions. And you have the income to support many of them.

    If you want to be careful you can fight defensively the first turns to not lose your initial province. But then you can take the province in the north (the castle is not far away) and then move to the south.

    One special tip from me: I played the Oda on normal difficulty and found out that is possible to demand vassalization from the clan in the north without doing anything before (yes, they become vassal). I was able to reproduce this. But this is absolutely not necessary.

    Back to topic: Maybe the Takeda because they specialize in cavalry and cavalry sucks. Or the Hattori due to their central position and mali for many unit types.
    Last edited by Stratege; 12-14-2011 at 13:03.

  22. #22
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by sassbarman View Post
    At the risk of sounding like a jerk I have managed to win with every clan on legendary with the exception of the ikko ikki and the uesugi. For the reasons already mentioned above they are the two hardest clans to play hands down.
    Let me escalate that risk level by writing that, as a chap who finished his first S2 campaign on legendary and never lowered it afterwards and who completed all Sengoku Jidai campaigns bar those of the Chosokabe, Oda and Hattori, I found the Uesugi and Ikko Ikki campaigns to have been rather easy.

    Just goes to show this type of topic is impossible to agree on in any definitive manner.

    Those two were certainly easier, or at least less arduous, than Date, which caused me to play with a constant headache while advancing into Kanto due to the long reinforcement lines, nevermind the very stressful need to secure ports and trade routes against constantly spawning pirates along the coasts of Iwate, Miyagi and Fukushima, which immobilised entire fleets away from the seas which were neighbouring my actual borders and where, thus, I was stopping the fleets of the enemy clans.
    In fact, my longest campaign was as Christian Shimazu, ending in 1571. A very easy and cosy game and I was not rushing, yet even if I was speeding things up, the difference from my Long 1563 victory with Mori for example, or from my 1561 as Hojo would’ve been significant.

    Uesugi develops fast and rather safe along the north coast into Echizen, securing its riches and those of Kaga, nevermind that it thus establishes Kaga as recruiting grounds. Unlike Date’s Iwate, Echigo’s vastness works in its favour, the castles of Northern Shinano and Fukushima being far away and thus an invasion won’t take you by surprise – the AI amasses troops in the neighbouring province prior to declaring war, yet it headquarters in the castle, not on the very border. Moreover, towards the end of your early game, an army in Kozuke easily defends North Shinano and Echigo as well, thus by placing a second one in Echizen your entire domain is secure and you can build up forces at a relaxed pace to capture the next few provinces before hitting realm divide.

    Ikko Ikki; great units; then Kaga and Echizen at your finger tips. An army in Etchu secures them from the north, a second army headquartered at the Omi crossroads is able to also cover the defense of Echizen, Mino and Owari and hold the province’s castle with a bit of luck, indirectly helped by the fact that the western road is blocked by Ashigaka (with which you can actually maintain the peace). Mino and Owari you will of course occupy as you head for the important Suruga-Sagami-Izu triangle with a third army.


  23. #23

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    Date, Oda, Mori , Chosobake, Shiamzu/

  24. #24
    Member Member Syl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    I haven't played through the campaign with every clan yet, so the value of my opinion is a bit limited ^^, but for me it definitely tends to be the Uesugi as well for pretty much every reason you described Madae. I find them really fun and love their colors though, so I have trouble keeping away a bit :p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madae View Post
    Additionally, the bonuses of Uesugi are arguably not that great. Warrior Monks are expensive. I like to use them because they're kind of neat, but their bonuses are outshined by their lack of defense - I'd actually be interested in seeing how they fair in a toe-to-toe match with a similar unit, just for posterity... though I still doubt they're really worth that much more cost.
    Bow warrior monks have the greatest range of any archery unit in the game. They are also very accurate and puncture armor well. Like you said though, their defense is nonexistent. Against other units it's a matter of range for who wins, but if you can let them safely snipe they can be pretty devastating.

    Naginata warrior monks have a very high melee score, so they can handle themselves extremely well in melee despite having almost no armor. They also have their war cry. The only thing that can really put up much of a fight for them in melee are katana samurai. Archers will clear them out pretty fast though. On both cases like you said the cost of the units and how easily you can lose them raises a big question about them. It's really about how well you are able to micromanage them in a fight and keep them out of the trouble they're weak against.

    If you haven't seen it, frogbeastegg's guide goes into a lot of detail about monks and where they shine (and every other unit :p) if you're interested in really detailed info.

    Quote Originally Posted by jepp21
    The hardest factions are The Hattori (they reach realm divide in like no turns), the Tokugawa (being a vassal sucks, aswell as having other powerful clans 1 turn away), and the Uesugi (starting location, crap diplomacy becomes your doom)
    It seems as the Hattori most people generally hold off on capturing Kyoto early to avoid that instant realm divide, and instead sort of absorb everything around it. That way they can seize it pretty effortlessly when the right (or inevitable) time arrives.
    Last edited by Syl; 12-20-2011 at 04:44.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Syl View Post
    It seems as the Hattori most people generally hold off on capturing Kyoto early to avoid that instant realm divide, and instead sort of absorb everything around it. That way they can seize it pretty effortlessly when the right (or inevitable) time arrives.
    I find that to be the Hattori's biggest advantage, since I'm lukewarm about their battlefield buff and the increased upkeep which comes with it. Having the Ashikaga as a safe little trading pet partner is a nice boost to my economy and, because they're a passive clan, I know my borders with them are safe unless someone else gets them to declare war on me. I ally with them and keep them happy so most times they side with me when push comes to shove. It's most of the bonus from having a vassal without any of the drawbacks. Only once realm divide is triggered by my fame do I march on Kyoto.
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  26. #26
    King of kemet Member Hamata's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    be chosocabe and mix it with a little christianity. and you get the hardest faction ever

  27. #27

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    I don't know about hardest (that largely depends on your personal playstyle IMO) but I'm going to declare Mori to be the easiest. Yes, they're easier than Shimazu, Date and Chosokabe!

    They start out allied to a reliable, passive clan which can be relied upon to guard the western flank. The geography makes it very easy to defend your borders and expand east without exposing yourself. There's a gold province right by the starting position so early money problems are solved. Slightly to the east there's a province which gives XP bonuses to ships; combined with the inherently superior Mori vessels and it's easy to dominate the seas and thus grab 4 or 5 trade nodes. If you own the Sengoku unit DLC then you have access to the wako raider unit, a cheaper, lightly armoured version of the katana samurai with higher attack and melee defence stats. These fellows are delightfully dangerous and you can spam them like there's no tomorrow thanks to their low cost and the booming Mori economy. Once the mainland position is solidified it's easy to go after the two islands in order to create safe 'backup' zones, or to continue pushing east to Kyoto and victory.

    If you go Christianity then all of these advantages get superpowered! The Nanban trade ship will defeat entire fleets singlehandedly, saving scads of cash on fleet maintenance and ensuring that no one threatens Mori naval supremacy. The Nanban quarter and other income bonuses bring in so much money it's impossible to spend it all. Early access to guns makes defending those limited borders even easier - 4 guns plus a couple of bows and a sword or two in each border castle makes for a very tough force at a low, low cost. Churches make it easy to rip through the chi side of the research tree, further boosting your economy and agents.

    While all of this is based on my incredibly silly and inefficient reader directed campaign, I believe it's all going to be applicable to a serious campaign played on a higher difficulty. Most of these advantages will apply equally on any difficulty. I'll have to try them on legendary one day. It'd probably be a lot of fun.

    Shimazu have to contend with poor provinces, religious turmoil, and slightly uncooperative geography. Date have those big, empty provinces and take forever to get anywhere. Chosokabe are bottled up on their poor little island and have no easy, reliable way off it without either a big gamble or a big naval investment. Mori don't seem to have any disadvantages at all.
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  28. #28
    Member Member Syl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    You mentioned trade nodes in your Santa Samurai thread in regards to your of your booming Mori economy as well, and I don't think they can be stressed enough.

    To me it feels like one of the major things that make the northern clans more difficult, aside from the geography and being surrounded by more hostile neighbors on all borders, are that the four trade nodes in southern Japan let you come away with such an incredible advantage when you have easy access to them. The Mori having stronger ships and a greater travel range let them grab them even quicker, but as the other clans in the area you can jump on them pretty easily as well. The AI doesn't seem to realize just what a gold mine they are and don't seem to really focus on trying to hold as many as they can consecutively.

    I haven't played Shogun II on its hardest difficulties so maybe that changes ^^, but from what I've seen, life as the Shimazu, Chosokabe, and Mori feels like being a kid happily lost in a Samurai Shopping Center with their parents seemingly unlimited credit card once you've grabbed those trade ports.

    Last edited by Syl; 01-07-2012 at 04:45.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    Surprisingly, I've had more restarted games as Shimazu than any other clan. Their starting position is weak economically until you capture the trade nodes, and if you take too long or make any mistakes you can easily find yourself trapped and overrun by numerically superior opponents. Once you manage to get them going however, Shimazu become juggernauts due to their somewhat isolated, trade-node centric location and superior military.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Most difficult faction?

    Well I'm currently part-way through my third attempt at Hattori and darn I think they get my vote for hardest - even moreso than Uesugi.

    You start in a nice enough spot with lots of fertile provinces nearby - but you are also next door to two of the most psychotic clans going - Oda & Ikko Ikki. Oddly enough Oda have developed into a force in all of my games (much to my chagrin) as they field brutal early game units. So after getting dragged into early wars you will rapidly run out of money (due to high unit cost/upkeep) or be forced into fielding mostly Ashigaru that will just struggle to match the enemy stacks. To make matters worse there is no easily accessible port which makes getting the trade nodes difficult to reach - and frankly now that I have ports I don't even have the money to spare to risk sending a fleet.

    The second problem is that while dealing with the inevitable conflict to the East you will also share borders with 2-3 clans in the West - all of whom want a slice of you. So it has been constant warfare for me with some ridiculous battles - I played one siege defence where I lost every single unit in my full stack apart from my general (5 left), 1 unit of bow ashigaru (about 12 left), and some Kisho Ninja (about 8 left). My general got some funny traits after that one :D

    Needless to say while difficult it is also enormously fun!! :)

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