What Am I Doing Wrong?

[Igirasu]

Konichiwa!

I own and have played every Total War game (except Napoleon) so I am no newbie but I can't seem to get it together in S2TW. Even on the easiest setting I get my butt handed to me.

My first effort as the Shimazu went well until I tried to take Kyoto and everyone ganged up on me. Lesson learned. My best game was a Chosokabe campaign that had me in control of Shikoku and the southwest half of Honshu, I was Shogun and my ally held the other half of Honshu while I took care of the scattered Christian provinces on Kyushu. Then suddenly my vast income plummeted and the game was effectively over.

This was followed by several more failed runs with the Shimazu. Finally I tried again with Chosokabe and, again, it starts off well. I control Shikoku and have a good alliance with the Oda [one of the three 'big' factions] on the mainland, even married into their clan. I have captured one province on Kyushu, have a great trade income from 5/6ths of the sea zones and the Oda and am about to press on into Kyushu when the Oda stop trading with me and my 2000+ koku income per turn dries up and I can't even afford my Daimyo's veteran army let alone my smaller garrison armies. There was no reason for the halt in trade. They show as still friendly. I control the seas between us. (Other factions I was trading with also stopped at various times. I assumed sea trade-routes were blocked but nothing. No reason or cause.)

What am I doing wrong in S2TW?

I am balancing infrastructure to build and earn. I am balancing arts between military and civil. I am refraining from building too many armies or too large of armies. I can't seem to get anyone interested in trading with me. Enemy metsuke seem much more skilled than my metsuke. The Christian clans keep converting my monks.

Any advice or suggestions from the pros? I'd appreciate any help you can offer or seppuku is my only option.

[econ21]

What difficulty are you playing at? How many provinces do you control? I did not encounter the problems you describe on normal but I wonder if you have become so dominant that the other factions are turning against you?

What I did as Oda on normal was get to a certain size - around 12 provinces or so, IIRC - and then pause. I was the biggest dog in the pack but not so close to 20 provinces and realm divide that I feared the other factions would unite against me. I used those fat years to build up a big war chest, so that when almost everyone did turn against me, I could cope economically.

Also, I had one ally with whom I maximised relations (+200?) - e.g. by marriage. They stayed sweet until well into realm divide.

Once the "total war" end game starts, I found armies became not so expensive whereas in the fat years I could only afford very modest forces. I think this is because once you start gobbling up provinces, your lands and hence taxes increase at a much faster rate than you need to increase your military. In the mid game, I probably only had about 2 full stack armies, heavy in ashigaru. By the end-game, I had about 4-5 with many samurai.

[Igirasu]

Thanks for your reply. I am playing on the easiest setting until I can get at least one victory, then I will ramp it up.

In my first 'successful' game I played up to Spring 1581 (145 turns) and owned 26 provinces including Kyoto. http://vault.axd.com/chosokabe-spring-1581.jpg

In my current game I am expanding slowly on purpose and only own 6 provinces (Spring 1563, 73 turns) http://vault.axd.com/chosokabe-spring-1563.jpg

I figured that nobody likes to see a rapidly expanding faction so, as you suggest, I wanted to get to a good base and pause. I am pausing after getting my foothold on Kyushu (Bungo province) and that's whats so weird. I am not attacking anyone. I am just minding my own business, waiting for provinces to undergo rebellion so they can be claimed without stepping on toes. And, bam, Oda stops trade for no apparent reason.

In the other Total War games I play a bit like a turtle. I start with a small, defensible region and only expand when my economy is going strong. I rarely attack an ally, preferring to let them attack me so my revenge can be swift and justified. I trade as much as possible and have spies out keeping watch for potential hostiles or enemy army/fleet build-ups.

[xploring]

Sounds like you are relying on your trade income for armies upkeep in the late game, are you upgrading a lot of your castles? Most players get a big food surplus once they have 10+ provinces (by building/upgrading farms and keeping castle low unless you really need to build specific buildings) and that food surplus will propel the economy to grow so much that by the time they trigger realm divide, they won't be worrying about money (either a big war chest and/or ~10000 income per turn).

Agents can win the game for you. If AI's ones are better than yours, that probably mean you are not using them as much as you should. Try to have them doing things other than sitting still. Or you can recruit them from special provinces which give them bonus levels.

[Igirasu]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I think my first efforts did have me upgrading my castles too quickly but I only once got to mid-game, let alone end game. In that early 'success' I had almost 10 surplus food but not as much banked. In my current game I have less food surplus but a much bigger treasury.

I also suspect you are right and I should get out there with my agents faster for sabotage and mischief. I tend to like metsuke watching over my key provinces and my second ninja granting my main army the movement and vision bonus. This may be foolish.

In other TW games I seem to have no problem with money and once the provinces fall under my sword the income flows. I just can't seem to get to that stable 'base' in S2TW. Am I playing too cautiously? Am I wasting too much money on samurai? I have read many posts suggesting that many players use armies that are almost all ashigaru. I prefer about 60% ashigaru to 40% samurai.

Is Chosokabe a good 'learning' clan or should I try one of the others?

And why the sudden trade stops? In this game I had one trading partner who would trade if I gave him a big cash bonus then the next season he would cancel the trade. He fooled me twice then no more! I could understand if I was a threat but I should be seen as a great ally to the Oda (yellow on my second screenshot), dealing with the Christians on Kyushu and paying no heed to the main island. What's up with that?

[Monk]

In other TW games I seem to have no problem with money and once the provinces fall under my sword the income flows. I just can't seem to get to that stable 'base' in S2TW. Am I playing too cautiously? Am I wasting too much money on samurai? I have read many posts suggesting that many players use armies that are almost all ashigaru. I prefer about 60% ashigaru to 40% samurai.

In the early game: the biggest help your economy can get is building a market in a few provinces. It gives you a big boost to your provinces wealth, and is probably the most basic foundation for your economy. It requires the first Chi Art to build. Though you should expect Samurai to seriously cut into your profits. In the early game they are almost not cost effective simply due to how much money they require to build/upkeep. Also, until you have about 6-7 provinces don't even worry about upgrading your castles. Barring unique circumstances (like being an islander clan with easy access to trade ports) they are just a waste of money in the first 50 or so turns.

[xploring]

AI weighs up the advantages of trading for both the player and itself, and if you gain a lot more than the AI with a trading agreement, AI is likely to refuse. A common trick I have read is try moving your ships slightly off trade nodes and then propose trade. Chosokabe may be the hardest clan to get trade, something about their location on Shikoku with a maximum of 3 trading partners, I didn't understand it but a lot of players had the same problem playing Chosokabe. Also, watch your Damiyo's honour, it has huge implications for your diplomacy/trade negotiations.

Shimazu seems to be the easiest clan to play. 10 food surplus or below is not really enough to give your economy the big boost. Using metsuke to raise taxes is fine but you need to level them a bit first. Monks/priests are very powerful with the ability to incite unrest, so much so some players say it breaks the game. Great for taking over enemy provinces without breaking treaties and honour penalty though. Ashigaru/samurai balance is pretty personal, but you probably shouldn't have many samurais until you have a good economy.

[TheLastDays]

Yeah, as others have mentioned, your early game should use mainly Ashigaru, probably 80-90%. My usual early game army consists out of a few Yari Ashigaru as my battle line*, about the same number of Bow Ashigaru for range and 1-2 Samurai Units, preferrably Katana Samurai, for flanking. And a General or two of course. By the way, try to have all your generals with the main army in the beginning and make sure they enter the battle as reinforcements, which means, drop them on the campaign map so they are close enought to the army you want to attack that these little red arrows appear between them and the target. Then attack with your main army and the commanding general. The other generals should enter the battle as reinforcements and gain experience just like the commander. Assign them commissions, most importantly finance and development and with every star they gain they will give your whole clan better bonuses for your economy.

Trade treaties can break for numerous reasons. The trade partner could have lost the province it was channeling their trade with you. Even if they have enough trade routes left it will brake their trade agreement if the particular port they were using for you is lost. Trade routes being raided by enemy ships will not break a trade agreement. Sometimes, when your trade partner sees a potential partner other than you, where trade will be more beneficial for them and they have no free trade routes, they will break trade agreements with you and start trading with that other clan. I never pay for a trade agreement with a clan that has recently broken trade with me as they will usually just break the agreement again.

Both Chosokabe and Shimazu are good learning clans as their secluded island position give them the possibility to grow without much intervention from others and their proximity to trade nodes makes it possible for them to dominate trade from the beginning. If you are looking for your first clan on Honshu, I'd say the Mori or Date are nice leaerning experiences.

*Actually a line of Yari Ashigaru in spear wall works so well as my main line I tend to keep using it, even in the late game when there's more Samurai in my army.

[Igirasu]

Hmmm ... good food for thought. Thanks for your suggestions.

I will cut back on samurai and not be in such a hurry to build castles. Seeing my neighbours building fortresses so soon makes me feel pressured. And I will try that trade trick to see if it helps.

I didn't like the Shimazu as much in S2TW due to the number of Christian provinces/Nanban trade because I prefer to just stick with Japanese weapons and such.

I didn't realize that reinforcing generals/armies also got XP. That will help. How do I assign commissions to generals?

Again, thanks for the tips. I'll give it another go and see if I can't fare a bit better.

[TheLastDays]

I didn't realize that reinforcing generals/armies also got XP. That will help. How do I assign commissions to generals?

Go to your Clan Management (The button next to diplomacy, featuring your clan mon) and hit the tab "Family & something". Select the general you wish to assign a commision to and then select the commission

[Igirasu]

Ah. Okay, thanks.

Last night I was reading deeper into some economy threads and also think I am rushing my military buildings. For example, I built an archery dojo in my capital, a swordsman trainer in my second province, a yari trainer in the third province, a stables in the fourth, temple in my fifth, etc. Yes, I also built markets and gambling halls and improved my province infrastructure (farms, roads). My next game I'll just go for a swordsman and build more ashigaru warriors and slow down on the post-road construction.

Last question: rice markets -- for or against? I read a compelling argument against ever building ANY, which is contrary to how I have been playing.

This forum is great. I appreciate all your advice.

[MaetKimms]

The only thing which i can understand is the difficulty level of the game.I think you are playing in a difficult medium and you are not expert of this yet.Can you please share with us about your difficulty level.

[TheLastDays]

Last question: rice markets -- for or against? I read a compelling argument against ever building ANY, which is contrary to how I have been playing.

Rather against. It can pay to have an economically specialized province with a fully levelled up market+Ninka chain and a high ranking Metsuke but other than that the benefits of +1 food outweigh the benefits of the rice exchange.

[Igirasu]

The only thing which i can understand is the difficulty level of the game.I think you are playing in a difficult medium and you are not expert of this yet.Can you please share with us about your difficulty level.

Most TW games I play my first run on normal difficulty then ramp it up (and I have played all but NTW). This game kicked my butt on medium/normal so I am playing on easy and still getting creamed. Hence my visit to the Tea House. I think I will do better my next run now that I have these suggestions.

[Igirasu]

Rather against.

That's good enough for me.

Domo arigato gosaimasu, everyone.

[Monk]

That's good enough for me.

Domo arigato gosaimasu, everyone.

Good luck Igirasu.

[Igirasu]

Go to your Clan Management

I have looked at that screen before but never noticed that until now. Nice. Thanks for the pointer.

So far, so good with my latest effort. Shikoku and Awaji are all Chosokabe provinces, my self reliant revenue is good (plus I am trading and intermarried with the Date in northern Honshu), and I am almost ready to sail my armies towards Kyushu.

Bwa ha ha! [Insert ominous thunderclap.]

[Igirasu]

Hoo-ray!

Thanks to all your helpful advice I pulled off a tidy victory, long campaign, by summer of 1578. http://vault.axd.com/chosokabe-summer-1578.jpg

Because I am a totalitarian kinda samurai, and because I wanted to see a geisha (not bad but I think they were more potent in the original S-TW) and some other end-game units and buildings, I pushed on to avenge my clan all the injustices of the Hatori and their ilk. My top ninja had armor and was a master assassin. Total dominion ten years after victory, awesome treasury and income, I end the war rated as "terrifying", life is good for the Chosokabe. http://vault.axd.com/chosokabe-spring-1588.jpg

In retrospect I was definitely building too many samurai and upgrading my buildings too soon. Ironically, by slowing my pace, I sped up my victory.

Thanks again!