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Thread: Crusade Pathfinding

  1. #31
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    As much as elsewhere. But you don't have to be an Elf to bear an Elvish name. Such as Victor is a Latin name, but I don't suppose you number Julius Ceasar among your ancestors. Yet, I may be wrong.
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  2. #32
    VictorGB Member Trapped in Samsara's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I don't suppose you number Julius Ceasar among your ancestors.
    I think you mean Julius Caesar. Et tu, GilRandir?

    Well he was an insatiably randy old goat, by many accounts, so who's to say I (and many hundreds of thousands of others) don't have some of his DNA.

    Genghis Khan is estimated to have 16 million living descendants.

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  3. #33
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Quote Originally Posted by victorgb View Post
    I think you mean Julius Caesar. Et tu, GilRandir?
    Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  4. #34
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    One more thing with crusades I wonder about. Generally, you have to pay the Pope for the crusade (usually about 1000 florins). But sometimes you get a message that the Pope calls you (and the catholic world) to start a crusade against someone. Do you have to pay for it as well? I mean it was the Pope who wanted it, why should I pay. I never had a chance to check this logics as this message comes either when I'm indisposed (read unprepared and broke) to start a crusade or when it is me that the crusade is supposed to aim.
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  5. #35
    Misanthropos Member I of the Storm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    I think this crusade is free then. But I don't know for how long this papal invitation is open.

  6. #36
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    What a thought-provoking campaign this Byzhighexpert of RRMike's is!! This crusade in Bulgaria started me into a train of thought.
    Imagine that this Sicilian crusade is firmly rooted there and the province suddenly becomes rebel. What then? I see three possible developments:
    1. The province goes over to the Sicilians (as there is their crusade in it) and the rebels are sucked into the crusading army or change their allegiance and become Sicilians.
    2. The province goes over to the Sicilians (as there is their crusade in it) and the crusade has to fight the rebels as now they are rebels not against the Huns but against the Sicilians.
    3. The province stays rebel and tolerates the crusade within its boundaries much as the Huns did.
    Does anyone have any clue which way the situations may develop?
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  7. #37

    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    What a thought-provoking campaign this Byzhighexpert of RRMike's is!! This crusade in Bulgaria started me into a train of thought.
    Imagine that this Sicilian crusade is firmly rooted there and the province suddenly becomes rebel. What then? I see three possible developments:
    1. The province goes over to the Sicilians (as there is their crusade in it) and the rebels are sucked into the crusading army or change their allegiance and become Sicilians.
    2. The province goes over to the Sicilians (as there is their crusade in it) and the crusade has to fight the rebels as now they are rebels not against the Huns but against the Sicilians.
    3. The province stays rebel and tolerates the crusade within its boundaries much as the Huns did.
    Does anyone have any clue which way the situations may develop?
    Interesting question. I'm assuming it would act like rebel muslim provinces do if the zeal was high but if not I wonder if the rebels will simply let crusades pass? The situation I was describing actually ended with the Sicilian crusade disappearing and them excommunicated (and in civil war), rather than the Hungarians. Which begs the question: Did the excommunication result in a failed crusade, and the resulting loss of influence? Talk about a double whammy for your loyalty.

  8. #38
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    So a new question arises: do rebels usually let crusades through?
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  9. #39

    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    So a new question arises: do rebels usually let crusades through?
    While not having any hard evidence to offer in this matter, I can only surmise that it depends on the crusading faction's relationship with the rebels. If at war, then the rebels with either attack the crusade or retreat to their castle, which would then be held against the crusaders.

  10. #40
    Forever MTW Member Durango's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    So a new question arises: do rebels usually let crusades through?
    Yes, they do.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Referring back to the original question, here's an example of historical crusade pathfinding: Emicho. (It's the first story in that episode of the 'childrens' BBC series "Horrible Histories"; apologies if it doesn't play in your jurisdiction).

  12. #42
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    I love it how we discover new facets of the game every year. Truly an amazing game overall.
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  13. #43
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Well, I'm through with my French high expert campaign and have some observations to share and questions to offer.
    1. I built a crusade in Wessex to go for Morocco but for some reason (which I don't remember now) I didn't transport it directly to its destination but had to move it to Normandy first. My troops in Normandy comprised two incomplete units - one of spearmen and the other of urban militia performing exclusively garrisoning duties. Next year when I could get the crusade where it belonged I checked its composition and learnt with surprise that it had some units (I can recall only pikemen which I never produced nor hired through having access to SAP) which hadn't been there nor could they be sucked into the crusade in Normandy (its garrison wasn't really affected by the religious zest). So, is it possible for a crusade to replenish its numbers from unknown sources if it passes through a province with no such units available?
    2. We all know that a crusade may dissolve if the chapter house that bred it is destroyed. But what if not the source but the target of the crusade disappears? It may happen in two ways:
    a) the target infidel province is captured by another catholic faction;
    b) the target province belonged to an excommed catholic faction which, while the crusade was on its way, got recommunicated (through the death either of the Pope or of the faction's king).
    In both cases the target stops being a legitimate target for a crusade. Perhaps, someone had an experience of seeing what could happen to a crusade then.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 08-05-2013 at 15:22.
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  14. #44

    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    I'm reviving this thread because, well, I started it, and because you raised some interesting questions, Gilrandir. I believe that the re-communication of the Catholic faction would defacto result in the crusade's failure, but I've never had this happen. Anyone else? Unlike M2TW, factions do not crusade en masse when called by the pope, so the likelihood of another faction getting the target first is fairly slim. One thing I've always hated is that one can't simply dissolve a crusade when it is no longer viable. Having my hapless, decimated crusaders holed up in a friendly province is utterly humiliating, and it's the one time I allow myself to auto-resolve numerous attacks -- just to get things over with.

    On another note, with regard to the infuriating pathfinding, it's important that you are not at war with any of the Catholic factions whose territory you wish to cross. You will not even be given the option to enter that territory, which may result in your crusade being blocked before it can even begin to travel to its destination!

  15. #45
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprian2 View Post
    One thing I've always hated is that one can't simply dissolve a crusade when it is no longer viable. Having my hapless, decimated crusaders holed up in a friendly province is utterly humiliating, and it's the one time I allow myself to auto-resolve numerous attacks -- just to get things over with.
    You can always destroy your own chapter house and the crusade will disappear (perhaps even without any influence loss of your king which happens when the crusade can't reach its aim).
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  16. #46
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    You can always destroy your own chapter house and the crusade will disappear (perhaps even without any influence loss of your king which happens when the crusade can't reach its aim).
    I'm pretty sure you take a influence hit from this. Never lost a crusade this way myself, but I did cause the French the rebel when I backdoored the Chapterhouse of a crusade coming my way. Not my fault he left the province lightly defended...
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  17. #47
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    I've had crusades dissolve when another Catholic faction takes the target province before mine gets there.

    Couldn't play that episode thing but here are a few maps:

    http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=...crusades%20map
    Last edited by LordK9; 08-06-2013 at 05:36.

  18. #48
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    I'm pretty sure you take a influence hit from this. Never lost a crusade this way myself, but I did cause the French the rebel when I backdoored the Chapterhouse of a crusade coming my way. Not my fault he left the province lightly defended...
    Probabaly there is a difference in the influence loss in case someome else destroys your chapterhouse and in case you do it yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  19. #49

    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    I'm pretty sure you take a influence hit from this. Never lost a crusade this way myself, but I did cause the French the rebel when I backdoored the Chapterhouse of a crusade coming my way. Not my fault he left the province lightly defended...
    Destroying your own chapter house while a crusade was active was an old "cheat" for triggering a civil war. Destroying it yourself has exactly the same effect as it being destroyed by an enemy incursion (actually losing the province/battle is also a factor in loss of influence however).

  20. #50

    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Quote Originally Posted by asai View Post
    Destroying your own chapter house while a crusade was active was an old "cheat" for triggering a civil war. Destroying it yourself has exactly the same effect as it being destroyed by an enemy incursion (actually losing the province/battle is also a factor in loss of influence however).
    Thanks, asai, for highlighting this chea... er... tactic. For some reason, it never occurred to me! And there have actually been times when I've thought: "gee, a civil war would be fun right about now." Seriously.

  21. #51
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    I saw a strange behevior of a crusade in my game, so I would like to describe it and perhaps someone could explain it. I am Rus and the Spanish sent a crusade aimed at my Antioch. They chose the African way, went through French-held Northern African provinces and stopped in French-held Cyrenaica. They had rebel Egypt and Egyptian Sinai to cross before they reached my domains of Palestine or Arabia. But they never moved from Cyrenaica! Usually even if a crusade can't pluck up courage to face an enemy the AI moves it into a province, then you get the message that e.g. the Spanish decided to withdraw and next turn the crusade is found in the province it started to move from. But in my case it doesn't even make any attempt to move, it just stands put! I can't imagine what appeal the crusaders found in arid parching Cyrenaica to stop there seemingly for good. Can anyone offer an explanation to all this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  22. #52

    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Happens all the time. The AI won't even try to attack unless it believes it has some kind of chance. If I'm the target and they're sitting on my borders, I usually decrease the garrison to tempt them in.

    You can sometimes get a crusade that just lingers on for years, with e.g. ten or so units and a handful of men in each one. The annoying thing is that even if you invade, they'll retreat and then they'll be back sitting there next year... One solution is to present them with a target in the form of two or three capable units (cavalry are best) tempt them in to attack then just ride then down until they break and mop up the routers. Horse archers are perfect for this in fact.

    Crusades stranded in orthodox territory will lose men rapidly and will usually disappear rather quickly. It's those on the borderlands straddling the "religious divide" or those in the west (against catholic excom factions) which will gain new followers to replace the deserters and thus cause the crusade to hang on for much longer. This may be why the Spanish crusade is lasting so long in French territory.
    Last edited by caravel; 08-23-2013 at 14:35.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Often I perfer to let a stuck crusade linger. Usually the same nation cannot send another crusade somewhere more damaging while the old one is still there.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

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  24. #54
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusade Pathfinding

    Yet another way that the rules are different for the AI :) If I try to form a second crusade, I get a game messaging basically saying no but the AI often has two to three at a time, some moving backwards. Also, beware that if a Catholic power takes your crusade target, that's it; the crusade dissolves. However, if you take the AI target, it arrives anyway with a messanger saying that the crusade is holy ordained (or something like that) and requesting that you give the province to them. I assume if you don't, you are excommunicated.

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