Most difficult faction?

**Jarmam** · 01-22-2012, 14:58

Aite, I got around to playing the Hattori campaign and there is no doubt in my mind anymore that this is by far the hardest campaign. Holy check this thing is out of control. The useless (useless useless useless) deploy-anywhere bonus that their units recieve will have you cringe in frustration that Ikko can field Katana Ashigaru for less than 1/3!!! of the cost of your basic Yari Ashigaru. But whats better than 1 aggressive enemy with such cheap units compared to yours? Two of them! Oda is right there next to you as well! On Legendary this spins the cost differential completely beyond anything I've encounted as any other faction.

The *only* unit that can benefit from being deployed anywhere is the Kisho Ninja, which coincidently already have that trait. Lucky enough, since their relative low upkeep compared to Hattori Samurai and Ashigaru alike will have you making Kisho Ninja a lot more than you're used to. Battlefield tactics are iffy as Ikko but they are unrecognizable as Hattori. Cavalry, Snipers (their speciality unit whatever its called) and Ninja are pretty much required to be the foundation of your army as they are the only ones with a reasonable price tag. That or some heavy reliance on diplomacy, praying that your neighbours are trustworthy enough to let you abandon the border you share with them.

Theorycrafting on the optimal way of opening in the first 15 or so turns was a lot of fun. After 65 turns I am sort of settled, but for once it doesn't feel like a total walkover from here 'till the end. This is a good campaign that will give you the extra nodge of difficulty that is otherwise only accessible by inflicting arbitrary restrictions on yourself. Well worth the re-visit to this game.

**Jungle Rhino** · 01-23-2012, 10:09

I agree Jarmam - the upkeep of those Hattori units on legendary is obscene - 122 per turn for a basic Ashigaru unit and double that 244!! for a basic Sam.

The only thing that has kept me in the game are two generals who both have stand and fight - this allows my central block of Yari Ashigaru to hold against enemy Samurai, I've also found myself fighting a lot of castle defenses which is unusual for me. The deploy anywhere trait is pretty handy I find as you can basicaly pick your ground on the battle map - I find I am playing with mostly Ashigaru (for financial reasons) which generally go down on a hill, while I send out the bandits/bow to skirmish and drag the enemy into my spear wall that is uphill. Still the price you pay for that is pretty steep - perhaps better actually is the fact that all your generals get night attack - that is very powerful. Also cavalry and warrior monks do not cost any more than usual - but personally I have not had the money to spend on the infrastructure necessary to field them yet - too busy surviving!!

**Jarmam** · 01-24-2012, 15:13

Bandits was their name. Those guys are pretty good for their cost - fortunately, since everything else is a joke for their insane price tag.

Cavalry is fairly simple to obtain, but yeah, monks are pretty much out of reach for the critically difficult start and the monk archers wont really be worth it since Bandits fill the archer role nicely, cheaply and quickly. It is true that the Night Attack trait is really, really good. Like *really* good. It saves a fortune on otherwise risky sabotage missions, leaving your Ninja to do other stuff instead. The reason I dislike the field-anywhere trait is A. You're often fighting in a defensive siege battle, and the only unit worth having outside a wall is Kisho Ninja and B. If you field away from your General, you risk your units mass-routing incredibly quickly, forcing you to panic-deploy Rally + Stand and Fight which can leave your general vulnerable.

I do like the idea of aiming for late-game armies based on Naginata Monks. I wonder if you can maintain enough of an archer advantage with just Bandits to justify the Monks' paper cloth armor or if you have to switch to Bow Monks to combat enemy missile troops. Maybe you can lure the enemy missile units enough to allow a consistent reliable ninja attack? That would certainly make the lategame a lot more straightforward and play to the Kisho units (Bandits and Ninja) effectively. This would also eliminate some oversaturating of speciality units given that you can then diminish cavalry use and field actual units instead. I think I need to restart and re-think the entire gameplan. I am really struggling with Takeda's 25 provinces atm, and Monks would certainly alleviate the main problem of his terrifying Katana Cavalry.

I also think I've underestimated the value of prioritizing fleets and trade nodes, since ships arent inflated in upkeep as units are. Its just so hard to find safe spots to invest properly in ships. I think I am really starting to like this faction.

**Jungle Rhino** · 01-25-2012, 15:30

I'm now at 15 provinces with my Hattori campaign and I'm sitting quite comfortably building up some slush money for RD. Christian Ito have occupied the entire Western half of the map but I broke them on my Castle in Settsu so things are peaceful for now. I'm currently fielding stacks of ~6 Yari Ashigaru, 1 Nag WM, all from Ise with +morale & +arm. 4 or so Nag Sam from Kaga with +4 atk, +2 arm. 4 or so Bandits/Bow Ashigaru from Echizen with +accuracy, and actually a couple of bow sam that I built before I got my bandits. I have two 5 star generals with Stand & Fight which turn the Yari Ashigaru into woodchippers. Without S&F I would have been done for long ago. I'm just about to spend a bunch on Kat Cav and see if I can work them in. Figure they will allow me to get a bit more aggressive with my bandits and try to lure units out where they can get mopped up by the Cav.

As far as ships go I find the trick is to send a stack of trade ships with a stack of warships. The AI won't tend to take them on. It cuts down your profits a bit but still nets you a lot of cash and it is a very safe way to do it. But remember you will need to keep your home port clear and it helps to have some allies along the way (chosokabe in my case) to keep raiding down to a minimum. It is a big investment though so not something you can do early or even mid game really. Also I'm finding lately that owning for e.g. the cotton node will enable you to sell trade access for massive amounts of money. I think the most I have gotten in one campagin was something like 17,000 koku for trade access which was just ridiculous :)

**Jacobin** · 02-28-2012, 14:37

I mostly play at legendary in which Oda and Tokugawa are both horrendously difficult (as for that matter is Chokosabe)

Oda will can only expand safely to the two relatively poor provinces to the south and if it takes Suruga will find themselves fighting the Hojo and Takeda from the east as well as the Ikko Ikki or Hattori from the north and are highly unlikely to survive.

Tokugawa must first take Owari which then puts them in exactly the same position as the Oda are in after they take Mikawa but economically crippled until they can pick a fight with their Imagawa overlords.

Of the two Oda are marginally easier only because it is extraordinary easy to take out the Tokugawa in turn 2 by sending your spare general and a single unit of archers to take out their undefended capital and due to their advantage of being able to recruit much cheaper and better Ashigaru being vastly more useful in the early game - while the Tokugawa's advantages in diplomacy and espionage only becomes really useful in the late game which they never survive to.

Their performance as AI factions is a good test - I have never seen the Tokugawa survive more than a handful of turns and never seen the Oda survive into the middle game.

If anyone has won a Legendary Domination campaign with the Tokugawa then they really have beaten the the whole series and have nowhere else to go.

**Jarmam** · 03-02-2012, 15:11

Originally Posted by Jacobin

If anyone has won a Legendary Domination campaign with the Tokugawa then they really have beaten the the whole series and have nowhere else to go.

Compared to Hattori the Tokugawa are a walk in the park. You can instantly get rid of the most fearsome enemy in the middle of the map (Oda), you have a completely secure border to the south and a staple friend and trade partner in Kiso which is also a completely safe harbour border to the east. Havent tested Toku's rifle riders, but if they work the way it sounds like they work then they could be quite fearsome indeed - too bad you cannot even get them as the tech pattern is senseless as Toku.

Its not *that* hard, its just unusual to be so at the mercy of diplomacy and being so handcuffed in the earlygame by being a vassal. Definitely not the campaign I would recommend as 1st legendary, but if you want to piss someone off to the point that they'll throw bricks at your window out of frustration then dare them to complete the Hattori domination Legendary before you do the Toku legendary
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**Graphic** · 03-02-2012, 15:42

Hattori, easily. Once you get to the battle map it might be easier going with everyone having kisho training, but the position on the campaign map along with most of their units being more expensive, its extremely difficult right out of the gate.

**Jacobin** · 03-03-2012, 05:45

Don't have whatever version gives you the Hattori so will take your word for it.

**Graphic** · 03-03-2012, 05:55

Originally Posted by Jacobin

Don't have whatever version gives you the Hattori so will take your word for it.

You can unlock them for $5. $2.50 would have been more reasonable. They're fun though. There's a cool factor that comes from being "the ninja clan" and having a black and red color scheme that no other faction can match, and you feel like you actually accomplished something by winning with them.