Most difficult faction?

[Madae]

Just wondering what everyone thinks is the most difficult faction to play. I'm guessing a lot of people will say Oda, and I agree that they are slightly difficult, but I don't think they're the most difficult.

In my opinion, I want to say Uesugi is the hardest to play, and then maybe Ikko Ikki behind them. I say Uesugi because I think they have a terrible starting location compared to Oda or Tokugawa. Where Oda has many easy expansion opportunuities close by, Uesugi have to go a long way to find one (Jinbo being the most obvious, but that's 2-3 turns away). Honma can be taken, but if you take too long, and with no reason for them to ever go anywhere since they're on an island, it becomes a battle with some massive stack of defending units. Let's also take into consideration that Takeda is almost always a powerhouse and are almost always in direct conflict, or shortly will be, with Uesugi. The only other avenue of expansion, aside from Jinbo and Takeda (who almost first-turns North Shinano in every game I play), is through your vassal, which isn't necessarily a good idea. Taking them opens you up to more enemies, and capturing anything beyond that when letting them live separates your lands and makes them that much harder to defend (as if that really long starting province wasn't bad enough).

Additionally, the bonuses of Uesugi are arguably not that great. Warrior Monks are expensive. I like to use them because they're kind of neat, but their bonuses are outshined by their lack of defense - I'd actually be interested in seeing how they fair in a toe-to-toe match with a similar unit, just for posterity... though I still doubt they're really worth that much more cost. The trade income bonus is negligent until late game, but is only compounded by the fact that 80% of the trade locations are on the other side of the map completely and a pain for them to get to.

Maybe it's just me, but I've always found Oda or Tokugawa relatively easy, because it's a lot more straightforward and takes less time to get anywhere. Their biggest disadvantage could easily be their advantage - they have plenty of routes to go for expansion, which makes becoming a formidable power relatively quick and easy.

On the other hand, I say Ikko Ikki next just because they suffer from a lack of samurai units, metsuke and a differing religion. Their advantages aren't really that advantageous.

[Zim]

I always thought Takeda would be a tough one, being right in the center of things and with a bonus for a unit type that's a little weak in TWS2. Oda have one back to the sea if I remember correctly and a great bonus given how useful ashigaru are in this game.

[Madae]

I've never played Takeda, so I can't comment accurately on how difficult they are - but I can say that in 100% of the games I play, they are the largest and most powerful faction in the early game. Unless I come into direct conflict with them at some point, leaving them to their own devices always makes them the most powerful NPC faction. This undoubtedly has a lot to do with their cavalry bonuses. A charge from a lot of horses has always been very powerful (in history and in these games). Regardless if they run into spears, a bunch of horses will cause just about any unit to break relatively quickly, and that's often all it takes to win a battle through chain morale failure.

Light Cavalry are powerful in their own right - for chasing down units and flank-charging the enemy. Being able to do it from the front with yari cavalry, and their added bonuses to attack and defense, along with their comparable mobility to light cavalry, makes them pretty damn good on the whole. Not to mention that there are more men in a samurai cavalry unit than light cavalry... AND they can dismount, so they can easily fill multiple roles in addition to being quick and sturdy.

I've honestly never thought that the cavalry were weak in this game. I rarely build them because they require more buildings than infantry, but I will always have at least 3-4 units of light cavalry (or just cavalry in general- 2 generals and 2 light cavalry or some other combo) for what they bring to the table. They can't hold up in a straight fight to infantry, being outnumbered and all that, but they're definitely not useless or underpowered.

And yeah, the start disadvantages to the Oda are well than made up for if you add in their bonuses to Ashigaru. Frankly, I've always thought Oda was one of the easier factions because of that. With that lowered cost, you can field larger armies and leave larger garrisons in towns for defense. I won't make full samurai armies until very late in the game, as I like to have a nice large unit of ashigaru handy for quick reinforcement. They really aren't bad units when they have enough experience.

[feelotraveller]

The problem with the Oda are getting through the first few turns/years. I rarely play them since I look for a somewhat easier start and harder finish (relatively speaking) whereas they have the opposite. Just about whenever the AI Oda survive the first years they become a force to be reckoned with.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

The Mori are difficult.The Oda are difficult,and the Date are hard as well.

The Takeda are easy.

[Hamata]

that's coming frome you takeda when i was playing as the tekada the emenemy blitzkreg me right away

[Tixan]

The Mori are difficult.The Oda are difficult,and the Date are hard as well.

The Takeda are easy.

I picked Mori as my first (except a few turns with the Shiz clan). Found em to be pretty ok, was thinking to get Takeda next, but maybe Oda then would be the worst?

[Syl]

I haven't played through the campaign with every clan yet, so the value of my opinion is a bit limited ^^, but for me it definitely tends to be the Uesugi as well for pretty much every reason you described Madae. I find them really fun and love their colors though, so I have trouble keeping away a bit :p.

Additionally, the bonuses of Uesugi are arguably not that great. Warrior Monks are expensive. I like to use them because they're kind of neat, but their bonuses are outshined by their lack of defense - I'd actually be interested in seeing how they fair in a toe-to-toe match with a similar unit, just for posterity... though I still doubt they're really worth that much more cost.

Bow warrior monks have the greatest range of any archery unit in the game. They are also very accurate and puncture armor well. Like you said though, their defense is nonexistent. Against other units it's a matter of range for who wins, but if you can let them safely snipe they can be pretty devastating.

Naginata warrior monks have a very high melee score, so they can handle themselves extremely well in melee despite having almost no armor. They also have their war cry. The only thing that can really put up much of a fight for them in melee are katana samurai. Archers will clear them out pretty fast though. On both cases like you said the cost of the units and how easily you can lose them raises a big question about them. It's really about how well you are able to micromanage them in a fight and keep them out of the trouble they're weak against.

If you haven't seen it, frogbeastegg's guide goes into a lot of detail about monks and where they shine (and every other unit :p) if you're interested in really detailed info.

The hardest factions are The Hattori (they reach realm divide in like no turns), the Tokugawa (being a vassal sucks, aswell as having other powerful clans 1 turn away), and the Uesugi (starting location, crap diplomacy becomes your doom)

It seems as the Hattori most people generally hold off on capturing Kyoto early to avoid that instant realm divide, and instead sort of absorb everything around it. That way they can seize it pretty effortlessly when the right (or inevitable) time arrives.

[frogbeastegg]

It seems as the Hattori most people generally hold off on capturing Kyoto early to avoid that instant realm divide, and instead sort of absorb everything around it. That way they can seize it pretty effortlessly when the right (or inevitable) time arrives.

I find that to be the Hattori's biggest advantage, since I'm lukewarm about their battlefield buff and the increased upkeep which comes with it. Having the Ashikaga as a safe little trading pet partner is a nice boost to my economy and, because they're a passive clan, I know my borders with them are safe unless someone else gets them to declare war on me. I ally with them and keep them happy so most times they side with me when push comes to shove. It's most of the bonus from having a vassal without any of the drawbacks. Only once realm divide is triggered by my fame do I march on Kyoto.

[Hamata]

be chosocabe and mix it with a little christianity. and you get the hardest faction ever

[frogbeastegg]

I don't know about hardest (that largely depends on your personal playstyle IMO) but I'm going to declare Mori to be the easiest. Yes, they're easier than Shimazu, Date and Chosokabe!

They start out allied to a reliable, passive clan which can be relied upon to guard the western flank. The geography makes it very easy to defend your borders and expand east without exposing yourself. There's a gold province right by the starting position so early money problems are solved. Slightly to the east there's a province which gives XP bonuses to ships; combined with the inherently superior Mori vessels and it's easy to dominate the seas and thus grab 4 or 5 trade nodes. If you own the Sengoku unit DLC then you have access to the wako raider unit, a cheaper, lightly armoured version of the katana samurai with higher attack and melee defence stats. These fellows are delightfully dangerous and you can spam them like there's no tomorrow thanks to their low cost and the booming Mori economy. Once the mainland position is solidified it's easy to go after the two islands in order to create safe 'backup' zones, or to continue pushing east to Kyoto and victory.

If you go Christianity then all of these advantages get superpowered! The Nanban trade ship will defeat entire fleets singlehandedly, saving scads of cash on fleet maintenance and ensuring that no one threatens Mori naval supremacy. The Nanban quarter and other income bonuses bring in so much money it's impossible to spend it all. Early access to guns makes defending those limited borders even easier - 4 guns plus a couple of bows and a sword or two in each border castle makes for a very tough force at a low, low cost. Churches make it easy to rip through the chi side of the research tree, further boosting your economy and agents.

While all of this is based on my incredibly silly and inefficient reader directed campaign, I believe it's all going to be applicable to a serious campaign played on a higher difficulty. Most of these advantages will apply equally on any difficulty. I'll have to try them on legendary one day. It'd probably be a lot of fun.

Shimazu have to contend with poor provinces, religious turmoil, and slightly uncooperative geography. Date have those big, empty provinces and take forever to get anywhere. Chosokabe are bottled up on their poor little island and have no easy, reliable way off it without either a big gamble or a big naval investment. Mori don't seem to have any disadvantages at all.

[Syl]

You mentioned trade nodes in your Santa Samurai thread in regards to your of your booming Mori economy as well, and I don't think they can be stressed enough.

To me it feels like one of the major things that make the northern clans more difficult, aside from the geography and being surrounded by more hostile neighbors on all borders, are that the four trade nodes in southern Japan let you come away with such an incredible advantage when you have easy access to them. The Mori having stronger ships and a greater travel range let them grab them even quicker, but as the other clans in the area you can jump on them pretty easily as well. The AI doesn't seem to realize just what a gold mine they are and don't seem to really focus on trying to hold as many as they can consecutively.

I haven't played Shogun II on its hardest difficulties so maybe that changes ^^, but from what I've seen, life as the Shimazu, Chosokabe, and Mori feels like being a kid happily lost in a Samurai Shopping Center with their parents seemingly unlimited credit card once you've grabbed those trade ports.