Independence of Palestine

[Tuuvi]

I am not trying to pick a fight with him because he is muslim.I was reminding him of how the whole concept is.In contary,I don't think there are bad jews. If we look at WW2,it was clear that Hitler tried to wipe them. I don't agree with good muslims,but there are good ones I know off.

There are a great many arguments including the fact there are many people who identify as Muslim / Non-Jewish who have a valid claim to their homes which are in that land. Even though there are large politics at work with different people having different agendas, it still doesn't excuse this fact.

Tell me,who lived in Israel first? Jews or Muslims? Cannites or Romans? The Jews did,until they were conquered by the romans which forced them to live in Europe.They were without a nation. And pretty much in their history,they had been removed of their lands by the :Persians,Babyloianins,including Muslims + Plus Romans. They deserve their land back,why Jerusalem is theirs! Not the muslims.

So,why not have a look at the geography of prehistoric iseral and make it the way it was once was?

Please be aware I am not trying to do anything wrong.If you think so,I shall edit it.

According to the bible, the Israelites began to exist as a people in Egypt, and were commanded by God to conquer the lands of what is now Israel. So the Jews weren't the first people to inhabit Palestine, even according to Jewish scripture.

[Catiline]

Gentlemen I appreciate this is an emotive topic, but please keep this thread free of broad generalisations about Muslim's aand Jews. Sweeping sterotypes of the sort being invoked here are not appropriate for the Monastry.

[Cute Wolf]

Gentlemen I appreciate this is an emotive topic, but please keep this thread free of broad generalisations about Muslim's aand Jews. Sweeping sterotypes of the sort being invoked here are not appropriate for the Monastry.

backroom?

[Catiline]

THey're not really appropriate there either, but I agree, it's heading that way

[Skullheadhq]

Palestinians are Arabs in disguise. They should go back to where they were prior to their violent occupation of the region, i.e the deserts of Arabia.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

According to the bible, the Israelites began to exist as a people in Egypt, and were commanded by God to conquer the lands of what is now Israel. So the Jews weren't the first people to inhabit Palestine, even according to Jewish scripture.

No. The Jews had lived there before they were in egypt.

[Sarmatian]

Palestinians are Arabs in disguise. They should go back to where they were prior to their violent occupation of the region, i.e the deserts of Arabia.

And who do you think Jews are?

Both Jews and Arabs are in the semitic group, just the first are Jewish and the second Muslim.

[Skullheadhq]

And who do you think Jews are?

Both Jews and Arabs are in the semitic group, just the first are Jewish and the second Muslim.

The same could be said if the Germans occupy the north of the Netherlands. Hey, we're in the same group!

Or the Bosniaks Republic Srpska

[LeftEyeNine]

Should we go back from Anatolia we've violently conquered to Middle Asia where our homeland is, Grand sire ?

[Hax]

I think this thread summarises all the reasons why there hasn't been a solution yet. There have been many logical fallacies, including "Palestinians are Muslims" and "Muslims hate Jews". The first fallacy displays a complete lack of knowledge concerning the demographics of the Palestinian people, especially the influence of the Christian Palestinian Edward Saïd. The second fallacy displays a complete lack of knowledge concerning the history of the Jews and Muslims; while the treatment of the Jews under Muslim rule was subjective to time and place, it can be said with some safety that the general position of the Jewish people under Islamic rule was quite good.

Islamic apologism aside, there is another issue that Cute Wolf pointed out; "The Palestinian people did not exist before 1947". The concept of Palestine as a sovereign nation did not exist before the 20th century, but that does not mean there was no such thing as a Palestinian people with their own Arabic dialect (comparable to, but not the same as Syrian Arabic). Additionally, at the time that Israel was founded and the subsequent war, about 400,000 Arabs living in the area defined as Israel/Palestine were displaced. Many of the descendants still possess the keys of their now-demolished houses.

The Palestinian people are caught between a rock and a hard place; on the one side Hamas, who (democratically elected or not) currently holds the power in Gaza. Then there's Israel, who continue their siege of the Gaza strip; there is also a clear discrepancy in the attitute of the Palestinians of the West Bank, who are generally luke-warm towards Israel, and the attitude of the Palestinians in the Gaza strip, who are generally(!) more hostile.

It should also be noted that the Arab countries may appear to support the Palestinian cause, but apart from Jordan and Lebanon, there are few Arab countris that have accepted Palestinian refugees. The Iranian support for the Palestinian cause, I suspect has other roots, but I'm not willing to go into details about that. Mu‘ammar Gaddafi (yes, that one) also sent back a sizeable amount of Palestinian refugees as part of a deal with Israel.

On that note, many Arab politicans have used the Palestinian issue as a way to gain political support. We should keep in mind that Arafat himself was not a Palestinian, he was Egyptian.

All-in-all, the Palestinian issue has to be resolved, and the position the Likud party has taken is not helping at all. The Arabs have to accept the Israelis aren't going anywhere, and the Israelis have to accept the same for the Palestinians. It's not going to work in any other way, not until the leaders of both parties are going to sit down and talk seriously.

[Beskar]

Out of the six possible solutions I listed, which do you think is the most viable for the future?

[Sarmatian]

Should we go back from Anatolia we've violently conquered to Middle Asia where our homeland is, Grand sire ?

Most Europeans need to go back to India first and leave Europe to Basques and such. We just need to decide who goes where and when so we don't create a traffic jam.

The same could be said if the Germans occupy the north of the Netherlands. Hey, we're in the same group!

Or the Bosniaks Republic Srpska

Being a guy from the Balkans, I'm well versed in the we-were-here-first, my-God-can-beat-up-your-God and you-committed-atrocities-first rhetoric and as a rule, when it starts it doesn't end well.

[Tuuvi]

No. The Jews had lived there before they were in egypt.

No. Biblically speaking, the Jews didn't even exist before they were in Egypt.

[amritochates]

No. Biblically speaking, the Jews didn't even exist before they were in Egypt.

On what breaking archaeological discovery do you state the above sir??

When even a cursory perusal of the either the bible or wikipedia indicates otherwise!

Plus though I would add my two cents:

http://www.hudson-ny.org/1120/what-a...rtheid-part-ii

Though I must confess the remembered the above only on seeing the Coptic church incident in Egypt on the news.

[Tuuvi]

On what breaking archaeological discovery do you state the above sir??

When even a cursory perusal of the either the bible or wikipedia indicates otherwise!

The word "Jew" means a member of the tribe of Judah, one of the twelve tribes of Israel. IIRC, the twelve tribes of Israel are the descendants of Jacob's twelve sons, who settled in Egypt.

[Noncommunist]

anyway, while absorption to Israel is the most viable option, I doubt Palestinians have the gut to swallow their own false sense of pride.

maybe forced relocation (just like what European colonists do with Native Americans and Australian Aborigines) of Palestinian people to somewhere else should be better. in the long run

Move them to North Dakota? I'm sure there's plenty of room for both peoples up there.

[KrooK]

maybe forced relocation (just like what European colonists do with Native Americans and Australian Aborigines) of Palestinian people to somewhere else should be better. in the long run

Speaking this style maybe we should relocate Jews. There would be no conflicts with muslims and Israel (into new place - maybe in the middle of USA) wouldn't have to spent so much money on army.

Sorry but theories about no Palestine nations before 1947 are funny. I can reply - Palestinians might not have been a nation, but Israel was definitely not a state.
These people feel that they are nation. They are not only muslims - they are Christians and muslims. Their cultural level is quite high (definitely much higher than into half of Africa). Why they should not have a state? Because they fight with agressor that sent them to camps. Sorry - this explanation seems wrong.

[Hax]

When even a cursory perusal of the either the bible or wikipedia indicates otherwise!

The Bible or Wikipedia. Truly, two great examples of fine historical sources.



What's all this about relocating? Have we all lost our minds? This isn't some strategy game on the computer with simplistic mechanics that allows you to generate generic happiness by commiting genocide or forced relocation on a population, we're dealing with real people here. How would you feel if suddenly some arm-chair social historian that glanced sideways at Wikipedia a couple of times, from halfway across the globe suddenly dictated that you should move to North bloody Dakota, eh?

Not everyone's an expert, and people don't have to state theior opinion all the time. It's absolutely critical that people are well-informed, and if people can't make the effort to do more rudimentary research on a specific subject, in this case the history of Israel/Palestine, they should either not state their opinion, or shouldn't be surprised if that provokes a possibly hostile reaction from people that have invested some effort into this issue.

Sorry but theories about no Palestine nations before 1947 are funny. I can reply - Palestinians might not have been a nation, but Israel was definitely not a state.

The concept of the nation state is completely irrelevant; although the idea of the state exists in Islamic philosophy, the particularities that are commonly associated with the exact functioning of the state is factually a western concept. As such, the idea of the nation state as we know it was introduced by the Ottomans (and specifically through the Young Ottoman movement), but we shouldn't apply our concepts of the state on a society where that concept did not exist in the same way.

The pretension that "Palestine" was an empty land claimed by no-one is to be honest, quite silly.

[Kralizec]

The word "Jew" means a member of the tribe of Judah, one of the twelve tribes of Israel. IIRC, the twelve tribes of Israel are the descendants of Jacob's twelve sons, who settled in Egypt.

Strictly speaking, the term "Hebrew" is the name of the original ethnicity of the people we're discussing; whereas Judaism is a conventional name for the religion - derived from one of the tribes, as you say.

You're right about the Biblical origin story, but I have no idea what archeological evidence would lead us to believe.

The concept of the nation state is completely irrelevant; although the idea of the state exists in Islamic philosophy, the particularities that are commonly associated with the exact functioning of the state is factually a western concept. As such, the idea of the nation state as we know it was introduced by the Ottomans (and specifically through the Young Ottoman movement), but we shouldn't apply our concepts of the state on a society where that concept did not exist in the same way.

Generally speaking (about Europe), the existence of states preceed the formation of what we would call "nations". Of course there was a kingdom of England and a kingdom of France early on; but the people living in it weren't what we'd call homogenous, they'd be lucky if their respective dialects were mutually intelligable. The people in the Netherlands weren't a culturally homogenous bunch when we formed the Republic, and besides, in those days we basically spoke (several different) regional variations of germanic. Basically it's because of historical anomalies that we're not part of Germany; today our cultures are distinct but that's because we got seperatated and formed our own, distinct state centuries ago.

I also disagree with the "no Palestinian nation" line of reasoning, as previously said on page 1.

[Hax]

I'll take your word on that, as I haven't really looked into the formation of the nation-state in Europe, but rather its influence in the Middle East (and especially in the late Ottoman Empire), and how the concept of the nation-state was applied by the Young Ottomans.

[Cute Wolf]

Should we go back from Anatolia we've violently conquered to Middle Asia where our homeland is, Grand sire ?

well, that's allready 700 years ago

America is hardly 400 years ago

Australia is 300 years ago

...

well? Israel is allready 50 years, and more than 2 generations of refugees has been out there, how much the statue of limitation then? how long it can be said to be "ok, it's allready too long for complaining now"

...

and as we speak about history, we all know history is cursed to repeat itself, heck, it's a complete rarity now if a nation state today didn't have their ancestors at some points violently expel the "natives" of the land.

...

Palestine is just history in the making, and we all know this... let's speak about palestine issues 100 years from now

I'm not saying Israel can rightfully claim the land, but by all practical means, they are now controlling the land, peaceful solutions, if not nigh-impossible, is very very very unlikely, and if we want a short-term solution.... just let an open war to determine it like WWI and WWII.

In long term, and relatively more peaceful solution, it's better to simply kick out the Palestinians and relocate them somewhere else.

...

It works for anatolian greeks, it works for native americans, it works for australian aborigines, it always works in history.... so?

[Hax]

I'm not saying Israel can rightfully claim the land, but by all practical means, they are now controlling the land, peaceful solutions, if not nigh-impossible, is very very very unlikely, and if we want a short-term solution.... just let an open war to determine it like WWI and WWII.

I don't dislike Israel or Israelis, nor do I dislike Palestine or Palestinians.


But what I find absolutely disgusting is when people pretend to know politics and believe that the best solution to anything is forced relocation and/or violence. It's absolutely horrific and I have no qualms calling you out on this. Shame on you.

it works for native americans, it works for australian aborigines

Spoken like a man that has no comprehension of the history of either peoples.

[lars573]

Palestine is just history in the making, and we all know this... let's speak about palestine issues 100 years from now

I'm not saying Israel can rightfully claim the land, but by all practical means, they are now controlling the land, peaceful solutions, if not nigh-impossible, is very very very unlikely, and if we want a short-term solution.... just let an open war to determine it like WWI and WWII.

In long term, and relatively more peaceful solution, it's better to simply kick out the Palestinians and relocate them somewhere else.

...

It works for anatolian greeks, it works for native americans, it works for australian aborigines, it always works in history.... so?

Actually what happened to the Native American and Australian populations is what Israel is doing to the Palestinians now. Minus the necessary genocides that would occasionally pop-up.

[Cute Wolf]

Actually what happened to the Native American and Australian populations is what Israel is doing to the Palestinians now. Minus the necessary genocides that would occasionally pop-up.

yeah, I meant that, like it or not, history is cursed, and Palestinians will ultimately fail...

plus the Biblical prophecy as well... you just can't change fate

[LeftEyeNine]

plus the Biblical prophecy as well... you just can't change fate

You can not bring subjective approaches on life into a debate meant to be made within reasonable arguments. This is Monastery forum where history based on actual facts are discussed, not "The End Is Nigh, Embrace The Savior" board.

[Cute Wolf]

You can not bring subjective approaches on life into a debate meant to be made within reasonable arguments. This is Monastery forum where history based on actual facts are discussed, not "The End Is Nigh, Embrace The Savior" board.

well, let's settle this, Palestine, no matter where did you look from now, are History "in the making", and like it or not, the Bible actually is the one who correctly predict that the Israelites will return to their promised land, and they are now returning. Well, I'm not gonna shove any faith-based subjects here, but just look another way, whoever wrote the Bible, allready predicted the return of the Israelites and Philistines (palestinians) would be expelled from the promised land.

Israelite has been returned despite odds...

now, how much the chance Palestinians will be expelled, well dunno about the time, but in the end, they are cursed to be expelled from the promised land anyway, if you're gonna to the most humane solution, relocating them is the one option, since if you decide to stay there.... what if God (or if you don't believe about God, or think that Christian God is not your God... whoever the higher being... or alien... or conspiracy...) simply decide to mass kill the Palestinians that decide to stand their ground there by supranatural means?

well, according to "human morality" that was evil thing... but who can say about that to God Himself? Whatever he decide is his own wisdom, and we all know that God is the one who tell the Israelites to exterminate the Canaanites thousands of years ago anyway, and now He may decide to finish this once and for all maybe? He allready give grace by letting them go outta there... so?

It sounds God is dictactor of the universe then? of course, if he's dictactor of the universe, that means whatever he do will happen anyway... so?

[gaelic cowboy]

well, let's settle this, Palestine, no matter where did you look from now, are History "in the making", and like it or not, the Bible actually is the one who correctly predict that the Israelites will return to their promised land, and they are now returning. Well, I'm not gonna shove any faith-based subjects here, but just look another way, whoever wrote the Bible, allready predicted the return of the Israelites and Philistines (palestinians) would be expelled from the promised land.

Israelite has been returned despite odds...

now, how much the chance Palestinians will be expelled, well dunno about the time, but in the end, they are cursed to be expelled from the promised land anyway, if you're gonna to the most humane solution, relocating them is the one option, since if you decide to stay there.... what if God (or if you don't believe about God, or think that Christian God is not your God... whoever the higher being... or alien... or conspiracy...) simply decide to mass kill the Palestinians that decide to stand their ground there by supranatural means?

well, according to "human morality" that was evil thing... but who can say about that to God Himself? Whatever he decide is his own wisdom, and we all know that God is the one who tell the Israelites to exterminate the Canaanites thousands of years ago anyway, and now He may decide to finish this once and for all maybe? He allready give grace by letting them go outta there... so?

It sounds God is dictactor of the universe then? of course, if he's dictactor of the universe, that means whatever he do will happen anyway... so?

Eh the Israelites never left Palestine you know there must have been plenty of jews in the holy land during the Ottoman and British governed times.

Think about it are you telling us that every single jew left Palestine hundreds of years ago and suddenly popped up again in 1948

Therefore the bible has yet to tell us when they will all leave so as to fulfill the prophecy.

[Hax]

Eh the Israelites never left Palestine you know there must have been plenty of jews in the holy land during the Ottoman and British governed times.

Think about it are you telling us that every single jew left Palestine hundreds of years ago and suddenly popped up again in 1948

Therefore the bible has yet to tell us when they will all leave so as to fulfill the prophecy.

This is arguable. The area of Palestine has always known a Jewish population of some degree, but in general, other areas in the Middle East sported a much more sizeable Jewish population: there was a large Jewish population in Baghdad and also in Persia/Iran, which continues to hold the second-largest population of Jews in the Middle East.

[LeftEyeNine]

well, let's settle this, Palestine, no matter where did you look from now, are History "in the making", and like it or not, the Bible actually is the one who correctly predict that the Israelites will return to their promised land, and they are now returning.

I'd call this motivating the believers doing so rather than attributing superficial features to a holy book.

Still it has nothing to do with the science of history.