A Question of Context

[Louis VI the Fat]

delete, wrong thread.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The appropriateness of the word 'fag' in a carnivalesque 'reversal of roles' post has been raised. There is some doubt about it. I would very much appreciate the opinion of my fellow orgahs. Opinion from both moderators and 'ordinary' members. In particular the latter are invited, since the .org is all about you - a communal site for the fan of strategy games.

A) Nearly all of us will agree this forum is not a place where anybody should be called anything disrespectful. Transgressions must and will be cause for infraction. The .org is a place were everybody will be paid due respect.
B) Nearly all of us will agree that too much Political Correctness both stifles debate, and can replace an atmosphere of playful fun with an atmosphere of fear and d/repression. Who would want to be part of the 'alarmed senior citizens' groups who are standing outside supermarkets right now, demanding the removal of Ben & Jerry's Schweddy Balls icecream?


Where to draw the line between these two? Where does respect for all moves over into disrespect for the individual? Where does banter moves over into insult? Where does common decency moves over into runaway Political Correctness?

Difficult questions, several of which have rocked public debate the past decade:
- How to respectfully debate questions about immigration and multiculturalism without stifling the voicing of serious concerns?
- Are academics in the grip of fear for the PC-police, prevented from voicing their opinion openly? It has been observed that on many subjects one receives two very different answers, depending on whether one asks the scholar something in public or private.
- Are Mohammed cartoons objectionable? To censor the Danish cartoons or to allow them to be printed?


The day we allow anybody to call another poster a Muslim fag is the day I will resign. I will not stand for that. Nor will I stand for allowing anybody to tell another poster to 'Die, you filthy Italian scum'.
However, the day that 'Die, you filthy Italian scum' is edited out of mafia games in the gameroom also is the day I will leave the .org.
But, what of the phrase 'fag'? Should it, like 'you spaghetti eating Sicilian scum', be subject to considerations of context, or should it be banned from our fora outright?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I feel a poll coming up, here are the options:

The word fag:

1 - Allow it always

2 - Context is everything. For example, allow it in one or more of the following contexts:
- for the fagbug, that secret weapon of gay rights groups
- to mock the anti-gay rights politican with, after he has been exposed to have a liking for young shaved boys
- for some fun joking around, such as at the start of this post and the one above
- as part of Commonwealth slang for puffing on a cigarette. The Yanks don't, like, own the English language, ya know, okay?
- to mildly tease the anti-Islam, slightly anti-gay rights poster with

3 - Never. The word must never be allowed.

~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~

Should we allow this on the streets, the 'gay rights batmobile', the fagbug? Or should it be banned? :

Most importantly, allow this, where the word fag is used in carnivalesque banter in the second post? :

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...?137044-Gender.

[Andres]

I feel a poll coming up, here are the options:blahblahblah

I just noticed that it says above your post #3 and some of the subsequent posts "Re: Puff on a Fag or else you can Lick my Balls ".

You refuse to correct what was obviously wrong. You fail to see that sometimes to apologise, even when you think an apology is not needed, can be the best course of action and also a sign of modesty. It would also save a lot of your colleagues a lot of trouble. You are now forcing people who are showing that they are true friends of yours' to come out and defend what is not defendable in an attempt to save your sorry [behind] and who are now standing up for you more than you deserve.

But no, instead of simply saying a "sorry" and doing an edit, you have to keep digging. You couldn't help yourself and simply had to continue to make it worse.

The fact that "Re: Puff on a Fag or else you can Lick my Balls" is above some posts here can only mean that that was the original thread title.

"Context is everything", you say? "It's meant as a joke", I can hear you coming. Nonsense.

For starters, it's highly inappropriate and just like "Fragony, our resident muslim fag", something that has never been ok here for as long as I'm a member of this forum.

But, good, context is everything is your point, hm? Given the context of all this mess of the last few days, my dearest Louis, such a thread title can also been read and interpreted (a perfectly valid interpretation, if I may add!) as you pointing your middlefinger to the membership of this site. You could as well have written "go [f-bomb] yourself, I can do whatever the hell I like". Maybe you should try such a title next time; perhaps you'll get away with that too, given what has preceded.

Poor show.

[Visor]

I agree with Andres and phonicsmonkey. I will post more later, too tired (Yay!).

[Kekvit Irae]

The fact that "Re: Puff on a Fag or else you can Lick my Balls" is above some posts here can only mean that that was the original thread title.

Not exactly...

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

Bullying is one of the things that should be banned.

[Louis VI the Fat]

has never been ok here for as long as I'm a member of this forum.

Hmmm...I'm getting the creepy suspicion this may be behind quite a bit of misunderstanding the past week.

We have always allowed the word fag in the manner in which it was used. (In the BR/WT) The question is whether we want to change that.



Also, the finest of .org traditions demands that one approaches subjects such as this lightheartedly, and slightly naughtily. The famous 'which Bitish slurs are allowed' thread, with legends IA, EA, and Adrian outdoing each other:

'Why does the Mersey run through Liverpool?
...because if it would walk it would get mugged'

Londoner EA: 'It's going to be a bit of a strain to have to remember not to ask InsaneApache where his whippet is, and he'll have to get used to not calling me a soft shandy drinking poof'.

Sheer genius. Alas, all of that is no longer possible in 2011. In the current internet climate of permanent outrage, the lighthearted approach was a bad choice, destined to fall flat.

[Catiline]

We have always allowed the word fag in the manner in which it was used. (In the BR/WT) The question is whether we want to change that.

No Louis, we haven't.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Contrary to the at times playful tone of the two posts above, I do seek serious replies, for a serious question that has occupied my mind. I would not want to post anything that is offensive to anyone, and fag is a word which can evoke strong emotion. So serious opinions are invited and most welcome.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Contrary to the at times playful tone of the two posts above, I do seek serious replies, for a serious question that has occupied my mind. I would not want to post anything that is offensive to anyone, and fag is a word which can evoke strong emotion.

So don't use the word fag at all.
So don't make stupid and not clever jokes, like poles going inside you.
So just apologize for being in bad taste in the gender thread, instead of acting as if this backlash against you is because of a lack of stated rules regarding context.

There are many, many ways to make a silly joke about someones sexuality as an in-joke. However, "fag" is not one of them, at least when you are posting in public.

EDIT: Not to mention slut, or the fact that everything about you said about PJ is also crossing the line when joking about homosexuality because it plays up a stereotype.

I can say 100%, that if you were to call Secura and not Furun the slut, that crap would have been stomped on, but since you called a female slur to a guy, everything is all fine and dandy right?

[Populus Romanus]

Context, context, context. Just placing a blanket ban on a word is bad, next up would be a ban on a belief or an idea.

Also, was it intentional that one could select all options for the poll?

[Louis VI the Fat]

So don't make stupid and not clever jokes, like poles going inside you.

I did not make a stupid joke about poles going in me.

They were Czechs.



Thank you for your opinion that one has best not used the word fag at all.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I can say 100%, that if you were to call Secura and not Furun the slut, that crap would have been stomped on, but since you called a female slur to a guy, everything is all fine and dandy right?

I don't see what the confusion is.

If someone made a thread accusing gandhi of something bad, a sarcastic person might reply "oh yes, gandhi that fascist!". They would say that because they think gandhi isn't a fascist. And that's the tone of all of Louis's descriptions. He doesn't think TinCow is a woman, etc

[Louis VI the Fat]

I don't see what the confusion is.

If someone made a thread accusing gandhi of something bad, a sarcastic person might reply "oh yes, gandhi that fascist!". They would say that because they think gandhi isn't a fascist. And that's the tone of all of Louis's descriptions. He doesn't think TinCow is a woman, etc

At last, somebody gets it! ~:worship:



Why does it not make sense when I say that I would immediately resign from the .org if we were ever allowed to call anyone else a Muslim fag?

[a completely inoffensive name]

I don't see what the confusion is.

If someone made a thread accusing gandhi of something bad, a sarcastic person might reply "oh yes, gandhi that fascist!". They would say that because they think gandhi isn't a fascist. And that's the tone of all of Louis's descriptions. He doesn't think TinCow is a woman, etc

I agree, but the main point was lack of consistency. Numerous times i have been given infractions and warnings under the pretense that the org is for all intents and purposes, "PG-13". A lot of this isn't "PG-13". If it was up to me, I would be 4chan style of whatever goes, but unless someone wants to say to me that the org is rated R, then I have a few issues here.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Your post was clearly a joke but still inappropriate Louis.

It's not appropriate for banter. This is a PG-13 site, and I suspect you don't understand the full meaning of that word in some regions.

Ban it outright.

CR

[Kekvit Irae]

Context is always important. In the UK and some other parts of the world, "fag" is slang for a cigarette.

It's like "the N word." If you use it in an improper context, such as just saying it in normal conversation, that's not a good use. However, if you use it academically, then it is. Example in question, you cant really give a historical point of view of Agatha Christie's novel "And Then There Were None" without mentioning its original title.

The point being is that you cant please all the people all the time, and you shouldn't even try to. The only thing you can do is remain professional and hold a sense of decorum.

[PanzerJaeger]

I voted for numbers two and three, but I only meant to vote for number two.

First of all, the drama surrounding the post in question is completely ridiculous. In my opinion, it was brought up purely to serve the interests of a particular member and his alter-account who has way too much time on his hands and a chip the size of Nebraska on his shoulder. The feigned outrage and innocence abused act is pretty obvious, especially considering the complete lack of it in the actual thread.

re:Fag. It is definitely a slur, and when used in serious conversation it almost always carries a negative connotation. By the way, the common phrase 'that's gay' used to mean something is bad or messed up is also pretty hurtful and I've read it here quite a bit, but that's beside the point.

What is the point, is that it was obvious that Louis' use of the term was not serious in any way, shape, or form. I think the vast majority of members (who are not pursuing alternate agendas) are perfectly capable of interpreting context, and it would be somewhat insulting to make blanket pronouncements about language use that sterilize conversation for the benefit of the greatest common divisor that make us out to be a bunch of morons.

In general, people need to understand that the mods are members first and foremost. They are here to enjoy interacting with their friends and the community. Becoming a mod certainly comes with significant behavioral expectations, but they are still allowed to have fun. At this point I can remember most of the mods before they wore the green - and, quite frankly, I miss a lot of their more aggressive posts in the Backroom. BQ, for example, was never rude but he was much more willing to engage in a bit of less-than-cordial repartee over sensitive subjects he cared about. From what I can tell, the job already comes with a lot of self-censorship and an assumed air of seriousness that must be at least a little constraining.

There seems to be an expectation among some, though, that dealing with a mod should in some way resemble customer service, where you can ceaselessly abuse the poor Indian girl working for slave wages on the other end of the phone for receiving the blue socks when you know you ordered the red socks (even though you clearly ordered the blue socks) and all she can do is apologize and ask you if there is anything else she can do for you today. Mods are not employees, they are not operating off the same script, and they do not owe you any particular experience. They are doing their best to make this an enjoyable place to spend time. Litigiousness as a tool to right past wrongs, score points, and generally create drama does nothing to further that purpose.

[InsaneApache]

So don't use the word fag at all.

I love to put a fag in my mouth in the morning and blow away.

You see, being an international board I can say that.

Damn Kekvit Irae beat me to it.