Something's wrong: campaign AI and dodgy battles in Rise of the Samurai

[Nowake]

I found that the text labels are generally very reliable. They aren't a cast-iron guarantee, particularly if you do something to 'provoke' the AI, if the AI clan grows very large and powerful, or if you do not pay attention to keeping the friendship rating high. An honourable, peaceful clan is still likely to break peace and attack you if you leave an unguarded castle on your border for many turns. If you have an alliance it's less likely. (...) Consider making some diplomatic deals to secure your flanks, if you have not already done so. Fighting on all fronts is very dangerous. If there's no one else suitable, perhaps consider a military alliance with this neighbour, if it can be managed cheaply. Don't expect it to last forever, but if it buys you a couple of years to deal with your other enemies then it's a deal well made.

In my experience, the single most important criterion for how leal the AI chooses to be is the number of conflicts it is engaged in. A clan at peace with all its neighbours and capable of fielding even only one army corps will look for a target no matter its relationship with it or how powerful that target is in 95% of cases; large garrisons will deter the opening of hostilities even for prolonged periods but most of the time the way less expensive variant is to bait the attack and be done with it.

With that in mind, it must be said that a variant to weaving your own diplomatic web of alliances – and the optimal variant, in my opinion – is working on your target’s diplomatic situation rather than yours. Rather than become its ally to buy yourself time, buy off its partners into breaking alliances and trade agreements. It is often times a lot easier than you’d expect. You find its next target, rather than merely trying to make sure it won’t focus you. Always attempt to drive a wedge before making any move against a clan – especially useful in not getting yourself at war with three new clans at once when that galling yet “peaceful” distant fleet transporting a full army corps is sailing towards you and you would really rather declare war first and destroy it at sea than wait for it to land before opening hostilities.
If I have sufficient funds, I tend to break even the alliances of far-away clans, simply to keep their fiefs in a fragmented war-torn state.

Hard. On this level, the AI is no longer handicapped, and instead it receives a small boost to recruitment. You should expect rival clans to be more aggressive towards you. On the battlefield the tables have now turned: the AI begins to get bonuses to its accuracy, morale and melee attack values. The player receives nothing.

Uff, I honestly read your findings both when perusing your guide and when you linked them in another thread, and each time the bit about increased melee attack values and accuracy never registered. Talk about selective reading...



Oh well, even if applying myself to simple tasks like reading seems forlorn now, on a more positive note (read: yay!), I will get into RotS in the next few days as I've finally found the time to finish my Legendary Mori campaign. It was (surprisingly to me) my second fastest Long-set (40 provinces + Kyoto) campaign yet, having taken only eighteen years (1545 - 1563).

[frogbeastegg]

So has there any been any patch to fix this? Surely CA should do that. I don't think they will leave it just like that.

I think a part of the problem may have been that 28MB file which was missing from my original install. Since steam recovered that file the game has been better. I'm not ready to declare a total fix or a continuing issue yet; I haven't had time to play the game for several days so I have 6-7 hours experience without the 28MB file and only 2 with. Should finally have time to play more this afternoon.

With that in mind, it must be said that a variant to weaving your own diplomatic web of alliances – and the optimal variant, in my opinion – is working on your target’s diplomatic situation rather than yours. Rather than become its ally to buy yourself time, buy off its partners into breaking alliances and trade agreements. It is often times a lot easier than you’d expect. You find its next target, rather than merely trying to make sure it won’t focus you. Always attempt to drive a wedge before making any move against a clan – especially useful in not getting yourself at war with three new clans at once when that galling yet “peaceful” distant fleet transporting a full army corps is sailing towards you and you would really rather declare war first and destroy it at sea than wait for it to land before opening hostilities.

Gasp! All of those broken agreements and new wars have nothing to do with me or the 5,000 koku I happened to accidentally leave on the table while visiting! Clan frog is entirely honourable, honest and reliable. We would never consider meddling in others' diplomacy! I resent the accusation!

Yes, the odd little touch to third party diplomacy can yield nice results. It takes some delicacy though; it's easy to accidentally get a clan wiped out instead of weakened, and then there's a whole new problem to deal with. Fun!

[frogbeastegg]

I am happy to report that the 28MB file appears to have fixed my campaign AI problems. During this afternoon's game I did not witness anything I would describe as poor or dubious. The AI is doing naval invasions, making appropriate declarations of war, managing its armies correctly, capturing castles, using diplomacy, sending out agents, raiding trade routes, and all those other vital motions which result in a satisfying game. Once past the point where the three families declared open war, the game became the ruthless struggle I enjoy so much in the original Sengoku campaign. Thank heavens for that!

The battle AI is less impressive so far. I'm still winning easily despite being heavily outnumbered much of the time, and it's still not attempting to flank or do much out of the basic line of soldiering. It is making more of an effort than in those first games, in that it makes some simple manoeuvres and uses its archers to shoot at me once the melee is joined. Perhaps it will pick up if the campaign AI gives the battle AI some samurai and attendants to play with? I'm around 40 turns in and it's still mostly using levies ... as am I, for economy reasons. Hmm. The AI families are all larger than me, and the AI gets those 'very hard' level boosts, so I'd expect it to be able to field a good number of attendants at least.

No idea what the 28MB file was, but evidentially it was very important.

[Nowake]

That's quite a bit of good news!
I played RotS for about four years (Summer of 1549 now) today without noticing anything conspicuously egregious in the AI's actions (then again, I played far too little).

My own campaign is that of the Fukuhara Taira (holding Kyoto, Settsu and Kii and having the Sasaki of Omi and the Watanabe of Yamato as vassals). No particular inclination towards their faction, simply thought it would make a nice change to not play the scrappy upstart for once, and rather begin as the suppresive faction.
Plus, their original position is quite complex -- almost frustratingly so, especially when you don't really know what you're doing. I've decided to just sign trade agreements with everyone and develop economically (I've a plethora of neighbours).

It kind of works, now, after four years, I managed to raise a five thousand or so koku seasonal revenue by occupying two foreign trading posts (Chinese Texts and Incense), secure the allegiance of Shinmen of Tamba and of Ochi of Wakasa (why is the Clan destroyed? should it not be presented simply as Clan subdued? especially when the Clan was favoring you out of its own free will), though both times while their troops were away, so I only got the raw provinces (and as we well know, both are historically among the poorest) and I've only had Isonokami of Iga declare war on me just now -- wipped out his mainly Levy troops with my own single stack of almost only Naginata Attendants (I am trying to play to the clan's strengths which include a few bonuses for Naginata troops, plus, they seem good all-round troops, the equivalent of a terrestrial medium bune to my mind; hopefully I won't have a shock when meeting samurai). My plan was to gain the allegiance of the Kagawa in Awa and then subdue Tosa and Iyo in Shikoku, Sanuki being held by Yashima Taira already, yet I believe I wasted six turns and a few thousand koku on futile attempts already so now I am converting Iyo and hopping for better luck.

Anyway, my domain is a miserable gallimaufry right now, very difficult to defend should the diplomatic climate take a turn for the worse, yet I am very much impaired by my own vassals in developing a compact fief.

Gasp! All of those broken agreements and new wars have nothing to do with me or the 5,000 koku I happened to accidentally leave on the table while visiting!

Oh, by the by, do not think all those you shoulds were directed towards you in particular, I was writing for the generic topic reader.

The AI is doing naval invasions

You know, I am a bit annoyed by that. During SJ, I only saw the AI sending amphibious military expeditions towards me, so I thought it's just an extra "Die die die!" added by the level of difficulty, yet now I've witnessed a fleet packed with troops sent by Kitabatake in Ise against Ouchi in Nagato. And I just don't understand, is there any historical precedent for these type of maneuvers? I would understand if e.g. a fleet was sent to occupy Iwate by a clan based in Hitachi and fighting in Fukushima a daimyo holding the five northern provinces, but that never happens. Just out-of-the-blue amphibious invasions from clans half a world away, totally unsustainable should they succeed. It's very "hmmmm"...

[frogbeastegg]

I managed to raise a five thousand or so koku seasonal revenue by occupying two foreign trading posts (Chinese Texts and Incense), secure the allegiance of Shinmen of Tamba and of Ochi of Wakasa (why is the Clan destroyed? should it not be presented simply as Clan subdued? especially when the Clan was favoring you out of its own free will),

I had a mission to secure the allegiance of a clan which had 100%. my family's (Minamoto) influence. On successfully acquiring the province with my 'sushi I was informed that the mission had failed because I conquered the province by force. The 'sushi's mission is called 'request allegiance', so surely that's the right way to handle that mission? I can't find any other way to do it in the encyclopaedia. There may be a few minor bugs in the mission system, as I had another mission which gave me 2 years to kill a specific enemy general. It failed on the very next turn, claiming to be out of time. The target was still alive so it didn't fail for that reason.

Oh, by the by, do not think all those you shoulds were directed towards you in particular, I was writing for the generic topic reader.

I was attempting to be funny. If the AI were capable of asking I'd deny paying someone else to stab it in the back.

And I just don't understand, is there any historical precedent for these type of maneuvers?

In the Gempei war the Minamoto landed a force on one of the islands, I think it was Awaji, and fought a long, messy battle which lead to the Taira presence on the island being destroyed. Shortly after that, the Taira were destroyed completely during a naval battle which took place in the narrow inland sea between Shikoku and Honshu. I don't remember the specifics, it was a while ago that I read about it. There were a few others at the end of the Sengoku period, such as Hideyoshi's invasion of Kyushu. All the same, it looks like a rare strategy rather than a common one.

[Nowake]

I had a mission to secure the allegiance of a clan which had 100%. my family's (Minamoto) influence. On successfully acquiring the province with my 'sushi I was informed that the mission had failed because I conquered the province by force. The 'sushi's mission is called 'request allegiance', so surely that's the right way to handle that mission? I can't find any other way to do it in the encyclopaedia. There may be a few minor bugs in the mission system, as I had another mission which gave me 2 years to kill a specific enemy general. It failed on the very next turn, claiming to be out of time. The target was still alive so it didn't fail for that reason.

As I've not experienced it directly, my best bet would be a bug as well. The way gaining allegiance worked for me until now was through the peaceful transfer of the province while the entire army of the ruling clan was away (it dissappeared completely upon my taking over of their homeland, did not linger as rebels or anything of the sort). Now, while I was attempting to subdue Kagawa in Awa, their army being headquartered in their fortress, I had a few "succesful" attempts, i.e. attempts in which I was being told I may not secure the allegiance of the entire garisson, thus going ahead with the attempt would entail me declaring war (formally) first -- and the Declare war panel was appearing. This was happening while the clan was ruling only that one province, as when holding multiple regions it seems declaring war is a sine qua non for securing the allegiance of your target province anyway so that would not have surprised me. I've declined every time, as the clan was allied with three clans, the clan of my relatives among them, thus I could not risk it.

I was attempting to be funny.

I know. And you were. Though me writing it this dryly doesn't look like I appreciated the jest sigh. Anyway, I typed the caveat because I was unsure if your humour was not also attempting to transmit that I should not try to teach you to suck eggs -- I believe that's the british expression which may cover it? I get them mixed up sometimes /shrug. Plus I was told quite a few times now I can sound condescending in cases when it was so not my intention, thus currently I am probably overcompensating all over the place. But humour is not wasted on me!

In the Gempei war the Minamoto landed a force on one of the islands, I think it was Awaji, and fought a long, messy battle which lead to the Taira presence on the island being destroyed. Shortly after that, the Taira were destroyed completely during a naval battle which took place in the narrow inland sea between Shikoku and Honshu. I don't remember the specifics, it was a while ago that I read about it. There were a few others at the end of the Sengoku period, such as Hideyoshi's invasion of Kyushu. All the same, it looks like a rare strategy rather than a common one.

Oh, was not aware of the first trivia bit. But yeah, still, see, the maneuver was part of an on-going war with both sides having vast strategic interests across Japan. And Hideyoshi's invasion of Kyushu was again a campaign against a last remaining stronghold. Yet what the AI is doing seems to me more as if Uesugi Kenshin would send an expedition against Chosokabe in Shikoku sometime between the fourth and fifth battles of Kawanakajima -- we're in the presence of a total lack of arguments for it I think.

I'd rather have the AI genuinely fight me for those foreign trade posts. Least I believe the Kyushu-based clans should be scripted to declare war for their ownership. As the situation stands right now, it feels a tad like exploiting a mechanic. Yes, the AI will occupy them, but with only a token fleet of trade ships which more often than not gets chased away by wakos, opening the opportunity for you. The revenue gained is so huge it is really a game changer, it's inadmissible the AI lets you get away with it, don't you think?

[econ21]

I'd rather have the AI genuinely fight me for those foreign trade posts. Least I believe the Kyushu-based clans should be scripted to declare war for their ownership. As the situation stands right now, it feels a tad like exploiting a mechanic.

Yes, that's one of the few criticisms I have of the STW2 AI. I feel, after all the patches, the ETW AI did a better job of challenging you for trade posts. In STW2, it reminds me a little of MTW, where you could have a unmolested pan-European sea trade network that put your income far above that of the landlocked AI.

[andrewt]

I think a part of the problem may have been that 28MB file which was missing from my original install. Since steam recovered that file the game has been better. I'm not ready to declare a total fix or a continuing issue yet; I haven't had time to play the game for several days so I have 6-7 hours experience without the 28MB file and only 2 with. Should finally have time to play more this afternoon.


Gasp! All of those broken agreements and new wars have nothing to do with me or the 5,000 koku I happened to accidentally leave on the table while visiting! Clan frog is entirely honourable, honest and reliable. We would never consider meddling in others' diplomacy! I resent the accusation!

Yes, the odd little touch to third party diplomacy can yield nice results. It takes some delicacy though; it's easy to accidentally get a clan wiped out instead of weakened, and then there's a whole new problem to deal with. Fun!

I wonder if they made the game using Empire's stupid AI and then changed it midway through development. That file that was missing must have contained the AI's modifiers and it was corrupted somehow during your installation or patching.

[Monk]

I wonder if they made the game using Empire's stupid AI and then changed it midway through development. That file that was missing must have contained the AI's modifiers and it was corrupted somehow during your installation or patching.

It was corrupted for me also. Froggy and I both bought the DLC from gamersgate, and we seemed to be the only ones having this problem. In both our cases, verifying and downloading the 23mb file fixed the AI issues.

[Abokasee]

Early game the AI can be extremely scary, particularly the Taira with white (not gold... Fukuhara?) as they can expand west where there are virtually no opposing clans of any significance to stop them.

However later on in the game the AI does some riduculous things... like armies made up mainly of Bow Monks... why? It just seems the AI has been done very roughly as it doesnt seem to have the ability to build a balanced list.
Aside from the AI I really like Rise of the Samurai.

[frogbeastegg]

Phew, it's been a busy few days.

I'm going to edit a comment about the 28MB file into the top of the first post so that anyone new reading it will know it's fixed and not normal RotS behaviour.

Trade nodes: I find that the current setup works for me. If we are at war the AI is ruthless at hunting down ships I try to send to the nodes (or elsewhere on the map for that matter!), sometimes to the point where I can't manage to get any ships through even if I send them in a decently sized navy. The AI is happy to blockade my trade ports and pirate my trade lines. I have had trade nodes taken off me by clans and pirates, however this is the least frequent behaviour. If it were more active then, for me at least, it would begin to impinge on my enjoyment of the land game. I dislike the naval side, and I really do not enjoy building fleets and painstakingly shuffling them around the map.

I wonder if they made the game using Empire's stupid AI and then changed it midway through development. That file that was missing must have contained the AI's modifiers and it was corrupted somehow during your installation or patching.

If I were forced to guess at what the file does, I'd suggest it was some kind of priority control for buildings, diplomacy and army movements. That's a layman's guess though; I have no idea how to code an AI. I suppose it might have some relation to ETW, as that AI's major problem was its inability to prioritise successfully. It's the same game engine, so I wouldn't be surprised if many AI basics were carried over to S2. One old CA interview did say that the AI problems were related to the original coder leaving and no one else being able to pick the work up and finish it as originally envisioned. The description they gave of the planned ETW AI is remarkably similar to what we have in S2.

[Kurisu]

If you run Steam's integrity checker, it will always download a new copy of shogun2.dll. The file always has a different hash value, but it's functionally equivalent and the same size (a little under 24MB currently). This isn't due to corruption and may be a red herring as far as diagnosing a wonky installation with regard to the perceived AI issue.

Just sayin'

[frogbeastegg]

If you run Steam's integrity checker, it will always download a new copy of shogun2.dll. The file always has a different hash value, but it's functionally equivalent and the same size (a little under 24MB currently). This isn't due to corruption and may be a red herring as far as diagnosing a wonky installation with regard to the perceived AI issue.

Just sayin'

Curiouser and curiouser. I checked the size of my shogun2.dll to see if it's the same size as the one steam downloaded. It's 23.6MB. If I run the verification now I get a 23.6MB file downloaded. That's a clear match. But the file which fixed my problems was definitely reported as being 28MB. So either shogun2.dll has changed in size since, or it downloaded a different file, or it two files and lied about getting one, or it reported the size incorrectly. I'd love to know what happened; the difference to my game before and after that file is like night and day.

Shogun II: when you're not playing with its samurai, it's playing with your mind.

[Kurisu]

Curiouser and curiouser. I checked the size of my shogun2.dll to see if it's the same size as the one steam downloaded. It's 23.6MB. If I run the verification now I get a 23.6MB file downloaded. That's a clear match. But the file which fixed my problems was definitely reported as being 28MB. So either shogun2.dll has changed in size since, or it downloaded a different file, or it two files and lied about getting one, or it reported the size incorrectly. I'd love to know what happened; the difference to my game before and after that file is like night and day.

Shogun II: when you're not playing with its samurai, it's playing with your mind.

Heh, yes. Though that's Steam's doing here. Other games have the same issue when you verify them via that process. There's typically one file that it will replace every time with a new copy that has a different hash value (mathematical ID). I would speculate it's a DRM feature. In any case, the closing dialog box that says "All files verified" or whatever, doesn't take that particular mismatch into consideration, so it's inconsistent with the reported download size. Technically it's correct, since the file is legit, but it could be more verbose about what it's actually doing. You're forced to inspect the date stamps or checksums of the game files themselves to learn more.

I'm somewhat skeptical that the whole Steam verification thing has anything to do with suspect AI behavior. The reason for that is the way all Shogun's data is packed together in relatively large pack files. The contents are read and aggregated at game launch. The RotS content is mainly in patch9.pack (along with packs for movies, shaders etc). Then there's the main executable and the main dll file. If either of the latter were missing, corrupt or incorrect versions, I suspect you'd have much less subtle and specific issues (like instant crashing). Patch9.pack is nearly 1.4 GB, so if that was somehow compromised you'd be seeing a huge re-download.

I know you feel strongly about some sort of correlation, but perhaps it's just a coincidence. I still occasionally see much of the behavior you described in the OP both in RotS and in the S2 campaign. That includes armies running repeatedly back and forth between two points on the campaign map, seemingly bizarre decisions regarding attack opportunities, agents sitting around for years etc. I think that the game's AI is a complex beast (much more so than it's sometimes given credit) and it's simply prone to logical hiccups given rare circumstances. When it's good, it's great, but it certainly stands out when it isn't. Perhaps your first experience was simply a bad day for the AI. How many games did you play while it still seemed funky?