What do you think of the RotS clans?

[frogbeastegg]

Which clans have you tried and what do you think of them? You do not need to have finished a campaign, just to have played enough to form an opinion.

I have spent most of my time with the Kamakura Minamoto, and I really enjoy playing as them. I like their bonuses (better archers, cheaper samurai, faster budo research) and starting position, and find their colour pleasant. That's important - painting the map in an ugly colour is less satisfying on an aesthetic level;p Out of all the clans, the two Minamoto clans seem like the hardest and I think the Kamakura may be slightly harder than the Kiso. When the family wars kick off they are in the middle of Japan, and often this means all four enemy family clans will gang up on them and attack from all directions. The middle position also means that the other two families can eat up the minor clans and leave you with slim pickings for expansion. There is no 'safe' border. The Taira and Fujiwara families have an easier time building their economy, as they start closer to the trade nodes. These factors combine to make a very challenging situation on very hard level, and requires that the player weighs every decision carefully. The Kamakura starting position makes it very easy for the sister clan, the Kiso Minamoto, to cut off your options for expansion. The Fujiwara typically do the same coming in the opposite direction. If the AI plays well it's possible to find yourself crunched up into a corner with no way out unless you attack either your sister clan or a more powerful Fujiwara.

The Fukuhara Taira are the other clan I've tried. Compared to the Kamakura they are much easier! Once again they have a nice set of bonuses; naginata units comprise the bulk of my armies and so having cheaper and better armoured versions is very helpful. It's probably a more practical bonus than the Kamakura's cheaper samurai. Building an economy is much easier, due to ready access to the trade nodes and a plentiful supply of potential vassals. The Taira are the only family with easy access to the west. This means that the two Taira clans can expand east to block off the Minamoto, and/or expand west to gather power. If the AI plays well then the Fukuhara Taira can find themselves cut off from the west by their sister clan, however.

[Nowake]

/chuckle it's as if we're the only Tea House patrons left with a bit of time on our hands to actually play the game every now and then. Here's my feedback nonetheless.
I've begun as Fukuhara Taira (Long, Legendary) myself; as I was writing in your other thread, I did not wish to campaign as the underdog who conquers it all for once. And the color is tied for first place with Minamoto Kamakura's for sure.



My first question as I commenced the campaign was why are the Taira rated as the most difficult. They do seem to have easy pickings all around and access to the trade nodes, as you were observing above. They do get the historical event penalty (upon Antoku's rise to the throne, you receive a -25 diplomatic penalty with all clans entitled Clan is not respected), yet unless one played recklessly, one shall survive. It only dawned on me as I was entering the middle phase of the campaign and I experimented more with influence peddling. Basically, the way the chap who designed this pictured it, due to the victory conditions, you wouldn't be able to secure your back as the Taira, whichever that is. You have the option of expanding your influence and territory towards the west, and fighting off the four clans in Omi, then land armies in Sagami and Iwate to secure the provinces required to end the campaign, or conquer northbound and keep the western clans in check. Both Minamoto and Fujiwara simply secure the north and then expand their influence towards Kyoto in their standard scenario, with provinces like Kiso ideally suited for a palace overflowing influence all around. Returning to Taira, either way, one will always have to fight on two fronts and it's pretty impossible to cheaply guarantee the security of your trade ships as casualties in Naval battles are so high that even fleets made up entirely of samurai ships ranked five or six need to head for port after a couple of engagements.

Now, while that is so, fighting on two fronts is not as dramatic as it seems. Especially considering how powerful the agents are.
A campaign highlight: two Kamakura Minamoto rank four generals are obliterating Fujiwara and Chiba (a Taira sympathising clan based in Kazusa and Shimosa) forces all over Hitachi and Shimotsuke. I converge my six rank six 'yoshis (I was allowed to hire an extra one as part of a dillema) in Owari (which is held by Kiso Minamoto) and embark them on a fleet, land them in Hitachi, seduce the two generals, distract their all-samurai army and an invading Fujiwara army, I embark the two generals and the 'yoshis and land them all safely in Ise. Doh... It was much fun to execute but I couldn't shake the feeling it's overkill. I've lured so many generals to my side I've given up on going about setting them as reinforcements to rank them up.

More importantly, Sous are a tad insane in their own right. The chances of success are not that high, yet the rebelling troops are in half the instances very powerful. Kitabatake took up the warpath against me a few years ago, while I was a hair's breadth away from maxing the clan's fame. It held five rich provinces and it was assessed as Mighty. Two years later, I've eliminated it solely with Sous and by defeating its main push in Omi in a couple of battles. Even its original province rebelled without making a fuss.
Rebellions are the way to go really, as they allow you to convert provinces and then move up your 'sushis, yet they are a bit too effective for my taste. I've brought Kiso Minamoto from a nine provinces powerhouse sending armies after armies of samurai against my clan to a four province weakling (and, in the picture below, Northern Shinano and even Kiso itself have just been enticed into rebellion by my Sous as well), with no armies left while I raid it's territory as far as North Shinano, hunting down its troops while my Sous bring anarchy into more and more chunks of its domain.

Check how Taira can develop effortlessly due to heavy use of agents.

Stopped to build up since 1186: 1191, Kitabatake declares war: 1193: Current year, 1197:
All the rebel controlled provinces you see were brought down by my Sous, and they're all completely or just partially converted. Not sure this was how they intended to see a campaign develop before hitting RD.

The Minamoto seem to do very well in the AI's hands though, they were wiping the floor with everyone until they jumped my clan. And their samurai armies were really powerful. I have six army corps, the composition of an army corps being a taisho, nine hosts of naginata warrior monks and ten hosts of naginata attendants. Those samurai can take a heavy toll sometimes, in the first two battles I was a bit impressed and disconcerted by my casualties.
The Fujiwara perform, sadly, rather poorly. Then again, this observation comes after half a campaign so it's not very relevant.

[frogbeastegg]

Yes, there's disappointingly few people here playing RotS. It's a shame as it's a very good campaign and a pleasant alternative to the Sengoku campaign. I expect to be alternating between campaigns for a long time to come, completing a game in one era and then starting my next game in the other.

Ah! That Taira diplomacy penalty should mix things up a little. My game hasn't reached that point yet (haven't had chance to play for a week now) and it felt like life was going too smoothly compared to my Kamakura woes. I look forward to reaching it. :evil grin:

The AI Minamoto has exploded across the middle of Japan in my Taira game too. In my Minamoto one, my sister clan expanded very strongly. I think that the AI really benefits from their powerful clan bonuses, and manages to bypass their major weaknesses thanks to the boosts it receives on hard/very hard. If we played on easy or normal we might see them struggle. The Kamakura Minamoto are very hard economically, when on the face of of it I expected them to be quite easy. Securing a gold mine in the early phases of my Date campaign left me set for life, never mind economic buildings and trade nodes. With the Kamakura, I have upgraded my gold mine, obtained 2 trade nodes, gathered as many trading partners as I can, kept a single stack of mostly cheap levies, and done as much economic upgrading as I can to the point where I've practically ignored military buildings, and my income has never topped 3,400 koku after expenses. That great bounty lasted all of a single turn, as one of my major trade agreements broke and I lost a shade over 700 koku. For most of the game it's been circa 2,000 koku or less. It's a real struggle to do anything. I'm quite enjoying it, it appeals very much to my methodical defender/builder style of play. I wish I'd found the mod which extends the campaign turn limit before I started; there's no way I can hope to win when I am forced to go so slowly.

I haven't managed to use a sou yet. I simply can't afford it in my Kamakura game (cost of building, then cost of recruitment, then cost of mission, plus cost of upgrading a castle = turns of saving up, or fewer turns of saving combined with passing over a market plus 'sushi) and my Taira game hasn't quite progressed to the point where I feel ready to bring them in. Soon ...

The humble 'sushi has been my star agent type. He is recruited from a building I definitely want in most of my castles. He boosts taxes when not in the field, recouping his costs. He lets me peaceful pick up minor clans with strong influence. He converts conquered populations which don't follow my family, and boosts happiness when overseeing towns. He disposes of enemy agent types. He has a decent range of vision and a good chance to spot hidden enemy units. He's got a name which abbreviates for a mild comedy result. What's not to like? Aside from his ugly yellow tunic.

[Nowake]

Hmm, I could see a potential link between slow economic growth and the lack of Sous though /takes cover.

Only half-joking even. My personal experience up to this point tells me province development is not the emphasis anymore in your economy. Yes, the agricultural provincial upgrades constitute larger leaps than in SJ​ and you have to raise Markets, sure, yet the path making all this pay off actual dividends is the optimisation of taxation. Basically, all my provinces, bar the two which form my recruitment ground, host both Market and Estate buildings. I find the Estate chain up to the second tier (Clan Estate > Shinden) to be extremely worthwhile in each and every province. More to the point, and here comes my connection with the Sous, it adds up magnificently with the following bunka arts: Direct Land Tax, from which you develop into Police Office. Your five Sous can be leveled for free (demoralisation is still gratis) and very quickly in comparison with a ‘sushi for example and combined they provide a 100% boost to your research, allowing you to reach those two quite early. I’m holding in my thirteen provinces still, with seven army corps and six fleets to pay for, and I still gain around 18.000 koku per season with only three trade agreements still standing.

While I maintain an ephectic stance before reaching a definitive conclusion, I’ll also use this post to further marvel at and rant about the incredible power of the Sous when combined with ‘yoshis by the by, even on Legendary. Unleash revolts with Sous and block their armies in between cities with one’s ‘yoshis; the chances of success are so high, I’ve not had a Distraction fail in the last one hundred attempts or so. Moreover, it’s really problematic the fact that you can incite a revolt right after the previous one is eliminated – you could not get away with that in SJ until a reasonable cooling off period was passing. I’ve eliminated Kamakura Minamoto and both Fujiwara factions now (after I orchestrated Kiso Minamoto’s complete downfall from a position easily rivalling mine in the same fashion) without engaging them them militarily once. In fact, my armies have a few years now since they’ve fought at all. A new screenshot to complete the four I linked in my earlier post:

It also illustrates the maneuvre I am employing: you can see two Sous having just incited a revolt, and my ‘yoshi blocking the AI’s repressing army away from town, after it had just quelled the previous revolt. It’s silly and it’s putting me off at the same time it spreads a grin over my face.
The violet patch you can see in a few provinces in Kanto is of Chiba, a Taira-leaning clan I am actually financing with about 5000 koku per season now, simply to conquer and convert provinces ahead of my eventual arrival.
I’ve actually decided to sit back and eliminate the two Kyushu clans as well before making any move.

Aside from his ugly yellow tunic.

Did you see the level four version? He looks like a butcher’s help, it’s utterly annoying though somehow a tad better than the one it sports at rank three and below.
Watch out though, around 1200 I lost three ‘sushis to old age, which almost never happened in SJ.

[frogbeastegg]

In my Minamoto game I've got the clan estates building in my two main economic centres, and have researched a bunch of the arts which provide bonuses to economy in some form. I can't recall if I have direct land tax yet or if it is the tech I am currently researching. Most of my research has gone into the bunka tree. My Taira game has a similar setup, and due to its better financial standing the effect is more appreciable.

Vassals look like an economic supercharge in RotS, and I think that's where I went wrong with the Minamoto. The economic boost they provide (particularly if you sign a trade agreement) feels much more significant than it did in the original campaign. If I had managed to make one or two vassals early on I think I would have been in a better position. In my Sengoku games I reserved vassals for the post-realm divide world; I didn't need them before, and it was safer to create them late thanks to the way the RD diplomatic penalty worked. Due to desperate circumstances demanding my single army run to the other side of my little empire, and the need for a buffer zone between my lands and the aggressive Fujiwara, I revived the Ashikaga as vassals in the hopes that they would buy me a few turns. Boom! My income shot up by almost a third. In my Taira game having early vassals helped considerably, and my economy has never been half as cramped as my Minamoto one.

An event gave me a free 'yoshi. She's ok. I need to use her more before I decide much; I still haven't had opportunity to test out half of her missions due to lack of safe targets.

The thing which concerns me about the sou is that he's a monk with a different robe. I have terrible luck with monk/missionary agents when attempting to incite revolts. I know others swear by the success of this in Shogun II; in many hours of trying I've never manage to replicate their success.

When I get around to my eventual Fujuiwara game I intend to use lots of agents. It feels appropriate for the history of that family and should provide a different play experience. For this reason I shall probably choose the Hiraizumi branch - 'sushi bonuses! Mmm, 'sushi.

Did you see the level four version? He looks like a butcher’s help, it’s utterly annoying though somehow a tad better than the one it sports at rank three and below.

Whenever a 'sushi fails a mission I imagine it is because his target was too busy laughing at the 'sushi's taste in clothes to give the proposal serious consideration.