The March of Time - A Stainless Steel 6.4 hotseat

[phonicsmonkey]

Welcome back Silver! I'll make the Kwaz playable when it comes to my turn.

As for the agent rules, they are intended to make reloading to create a different outcome impossible.

It's because of the way that random actions work in this game - the random seed is generated at the start of the turn NOT when you try the action, but before, which means if you perform an action, then reload and perform the exact same action it will have exactly the same outcome time and time again because it is using the same random seed which is not reset by reloading.

Then once you have performed that action a new random seed is created which determines the chance of the next action succeeding or failing.

So if you fail an action, then reload and try a different action first it will reset the seed and then you can try the original action again. In this way it's possible to, through trial and error, keep reloading and trying different actions in different combinations until you get the result you want.

Hence in my rules you have to do the assassination first and the spying action second at the very start of the turn, to ensure that reloading won't help you and that it can be independently verified. You are only allowed one of each to stop you from trying different ones in combination over and over.

Test it yourself if you like, to prove it works.

As for the spies opening the gates, this rule doesn't stop you putting more than one spy in a settlement, but it's going to take you at least one turn per spy to do it.

Which will slow the game down and make it difficult to break through defensive lines without siege equipment. This is exactly the outcome I'm looking for.

Everyone's castles and cities are developed enough to produce siege equipment, so I think this is ok.

Let me know if anyone disagrees but to be honest the only other way I would have it is to ban spies from opening the gates at all, because they are overpowered in the game and it's impossible to tell if someone is cheating by reloading or just very very lucky.

[deguerra]

Nup, agree with the rule 100% phonics. Also thanks for the random seed explanation. I'd long suspected something similar was the case, but was never quite sure how it worked.

[Nightbringer]

so do battles use a separate random seed. I have known agents work this way, but never been sure if their seed is separate from that for battles.

[phonicsmonkey]

so do battles use a separate random seed. I have known agents work this way, but never been sure if their seed is separate from that for battles.

I'm not sure but it's easy to test. Just save, AR a battle, note the results. Then reload, try an agent action, the AR the same battle and see if the results are different.

[Nightbringer]

Ya, that would work, if I were less lazy :) I was hoping someone else had already done that. I'll give it a try sometime in a SP game and post the results.

[phonicsmonkey]

Ya, that would work, if I were less lazy :) I was hoping someone else had already done that. I'll give it a try sometime in a SP game and post the results.

Based on the reloading discussion over at TWC I would say it does work that way.

I should be clear too that if you have already infiltrated several cities or forts taking one turn at a time to do so, then you can definitely open all those gates in the same turn if the game will let you. The rule doesn't restrict that. Those odds are set for the particular turn and don't use the random seed in the same way as the spying attempts do.

[Myth]

1. Spies can open the gate on the same turn and it's happened about 30% of the time for me when I used to do that in SP. They are not that relevant now that we all have Trebuchets anyway.

2. There is much less leeway for the AR calculator, though it does vary as well. AR battles are linked with the random seed, it's one random seed for everything. However, the outcome for each action changes based on other actions done. So, for example, if you attempt to assasinate a character and fail, you can move another agent or an army, or fight a battle, and then try it, and this time the result will be different. It is possible for one to load many times untill they find a "winning" sequence of acitons that will let them succeed on a given random check.

I've had battles be close defeats, but then i've loaded and the only thing i've changed was I won another battle first, and then did the problematic one and presto - clear victory. This happens very rarely though. What I've noticed however, is that if your attacking general has Night Fighter, the odds of you winning the battle are much greater if you "flash" (select and deselect the NB icon) the night battle option. Don't ask me why, I have no idea. Overall though it's not possible to severly influence the autoreseolve results with loading - a stack of archers will never beat a stack of Dism. Chivalric Knights.

[SilverShield]

im not really getting this whole "seed" thing. so every spy action changes the entire game? its pretty blown then

Welcome back Silver! I'll make the Kwaz playable when it comes to my turn.

As for the agent rules, they are intended to make reloading to create a different outcome impossible.

It's because of the way that random actions work in this game - the random seed is generated at the start of the turn NOT when you try the action, but before, which means if you perform an action, then reload and perform the exact same action it will have exactly the same outcome time and time again because it is using the same random seed which is not reset by reloading.

Then once you have performed that action a new random seed is created which determines the chance of the next action succeeding or failing.

So if you fail an action, then reload and try a different action first it will reset the seed and then you can try the original action again. In this way it's possible to, through trial and error, keep reloading and trying different actions in different combinations until you get the result you want.

Hence in my rules you have to do the assassination first and the spying action second at the very start of the turn, to ensure that reloading won't help you and that it can be independently verified. You are only allowed one of each to stop you from trying different ones in combination over and over.

Test it yourself if you like, to prove it works.

As for the spies opening the gates, this rule doesn't stop you putting more than one spy in a settlement, but it's going to take you at least one turn per spy to do it.

Which will slow the game down and make it difficult to break through defensive lines without siege equipment. This is exactly the outcome I'm looking for.

Everyone's castles and cities are developed enough to produce siege equipment, so I think this is ok.

Let me know if anyone disagrees but to be honest the only other way I would have it is to ban spies from opening the gates at all, because they are overpowered in the game and it's impossible to tell if someone is cheating by reloading or just very very lucky.

[deguerra]

im not really getting this whole "seed" thing. so every spy action changes the entire game? its pretty blown then

Yes. In theory, any spy/assassination action can change the 'randomness' of the turn to follow. Kinda weird, yes. Not the weirdest thing about Medieval 2 though.

In hotseat games, we therefore require that turns be done in a specific order: Assassination - Spy - Everything else (are we switching to Spy - Assassination - Everything else phonics?). This is not to somehow change the outcome of the game (though potentially it does, but seeing as we'll never know, it doesn't matter) but so that the outcome can be replicated. That is, if someone attempts to cheat, but follows the same order, the result will be the same (thus defeating the point of cheating). And anyone else can replicate the exact results by following the order (thus catching cheating if someone does not follow the order).

It is all a bit convoluted and technical, but you don't really have to worry about it. Just follow the simple order and otherwise play as normally.

[phonicsmonkey]

(are we switching to Spy - Assassination - Everything else phonics

Yes, I'll update the rules when I get a chance - I'm crazy busy with work this week

Just follow the simple order and otherwise play as normally.

Yesssss, trust the monkey....

[Rougeman]

Mot_1_France.sav

[LooseCannon1]

England's up

[Zim]

Eastern Romans up

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...id=205&id=9619

[Ignoramus]

Sorry guys for not replying before - I got swamped with end of semester uni stuff. Is there any chance I could sneak in? (if not that's fine.)

[Ignoramus]

Ok, I think I'd like to take Genoa if I may.

[Ignoramus]

Can anyone let me know who I'm at war with, so I can do some diplomacy before my turn?

[phonicsmonkey]

Moors

[Mithridate]

kwaz

@aazard

[phonicsmonkey]

Are France and Norway dead now? Any idea what turn it happened on for each?

[Mithridate]

Playing

[phonicsmonkey]

Skipped, sorry @Rougeman but the show must go on

@Zim, Ingerlund is up