Brennus Belgian Bother

[Brennus]

This is really an interesting thread. I don't know enough about the Belgians to add a lot to the discussion, just, it's possible that, if there is a belgic faction, it will be displayed as a conglomerate of belgic tribes. We have seen it exemplified in the Pritanoi-Preview. In their case the EB team discarded the tribal names that were given by Caesar and later writers, because there was no evidence these tribes existed in the third century BC, let alone using the same names Caesar accounted for, almost two hundred years later. I don't know if such evidence exists in the case of the beglic tribes but we can be sure that's something the team will look into, if they are going to do a belgic faction.

In the case of the Bellovaci, Atrebates etc. the archaeological record appears to show continuty in the area from the 3rd century BC until the 1st century AD, suggesting that these tribal groupings were in existence in 272BC.

[TheLastDays]

In the case of the Bellovaci, Atrebates etc. the archaeological record appears to show continuty in the area from the 3rd century BC until the 1st century AD, suggesting that these tribal groupings were in existence in 272BC.

I think this would speak for the use of one of these tribes as a representative for the Belgae. I'm pretty sure they would use one where there is evidence, not only of existence aroud 272 BC but also at least a hint towards dominance among the tribes.

[Populus Romanus]

Reading over the cases for each, it is clear that the Belgians proper are the strongest candidate. I must add that this is an incredible piece of work, you obviously are very passionate about the Belgae. I used to be a Belgae hater, but there are too many Greeks in this game and ever since the other Gauls were reduced to one province Gaul looks eye-bleedingly beige.

[stratigos vasilios]

Who knows, they might be represented as a Koinon Belgion...

Tongue in cheek of course!

[Leon the Batavian]

The answer to this question is quiet simple.

The ones who brew the best beer should lead.

The gods have spoken!

So if you find the tribe who was best at it you know your answer :)

[Arjos]

Interesting about the Belgae from "Belgium", also about the material continuity...
I'd like to see the Bellovaci, they are among those present from the start and the alliance with Aeduoi speaks for their importance, plus they were the most war-like of the "furious ones", quite a character :P

[Brennus]

Sorry it took a while, here are the sources in case people want to cross check:

Allen, D.F. 1960. ‘The Origins of Coinage in Britain: A Reappraisal; in Frere, S.S. (ed.) Problems of the Iron Age in Southern Britain. (p97-302). University of London Institute of Archaeology: London
Caesar. De Bello Gallico
Creighton, J. 2000. Coins and power in late Iron Age Britain. Cambridge University Press: Press
Fichtl, S. 2004. Les Peuples Gaulois. Editions Errance: Paris
-----------1994. Le Gaulois du Nord de la Gaule. Editions Errance: Paris
Hachmann, R. 1976.The problem of the Belgae seen from the continent, Bulletin of the Institute of Archaeology, 13, p117-137.
Haselgrove, C. 2007. ‘The Age of Enclosure: Later Iron Age settlement and society in Northern France’ in The Later Iron Age in Britain and Beyond. C. Haselgrobe and Moore, T. (eds), p492-523. Oxbow Books: Oxford
Hawkes, C.F.C. and Dunning, G.G. 1931. The Belgae of Gaul and Britain. Archaeological Journal (87): London
Hawkes, C.F.C. 1968. New Thoughts on the Belgae. Antiquity, 42, p6-16
Roymans, N. 1990. Tribal Societies in Northern Gaul. Cingula: Amsterdam

[Brennus]

Thank you to everyone for your thoughts, its interesting that at least one person has voted for the Remi. Special thanks to Populous for the compliment, much apprectiated!

Worryingly though, I have found some new information which casts doubt on the validity of a Belgic faction being in EBII (my posting this is equivealent to the Pope saying Jesus is a myth). Thia week I have been reading a book examining the Celts of North Western Europe, the author Venceslas Kruta, states that the Belgae migrated to Belgica c.250BC (interestingly from the upper Danube which dispells any notion of the Belgians proper being Germans). Now this need not pose an insuperable problem to the Belgae being in EBII, Kruta's book is from 1985 and more recent studies may have updated the arrival of the Belgae also there are a few EB factions who are confirmed who's existence in 272BC is questionable (Sweboz, Parthia, Baktria).

[XSamatan]

Impressive.

XSamatan

[Power2the1]

Thank you to everyone for your thoughts, its interesting that at least one person has voted for the Remi. Special thanks to Populous for the compliment, much apprectiated!

Worryingly though, I have found some new information which casts doubt on the validity of a Belgic faction being in EBII (my posting this is equivealent to the Pope saying Jesus is a myth). Thia week I have been reading a book examining the Celts of North Western Europe, the author Venceslas Kruta, states that the Belgae migrated to Belgica c.250BC (interestingly from the upper Danube which dispells any notion of the Belgians proper being Germans). Now this need not pose an insuperable problem to the Belgae being in EBII, Kruta's book is from 1985 and more recent studies may have updated the arrival of the Belgae also there are a few EB factions who are confirmed who's existence in 272BC is questionable (Sweboz, Parthia, Baktria).

The Celts by Moscati, Kruta, etc... mentions this as well, though I forget the exact chapter as the book is over 800 pages. I think it would be found under the chapter focusing on Celts along the Danube. Among the main reasons for his are, for one, the sudden apperance of female adornment items such as anklets, that only appear in the eastern Carpathian/Danubian zones.

It's interesting to note the regions belonging to the Triueroi (Treveri) are known to have had arrivals from elsewhere as well around the same time. I am unsure to the two occurrences are linked, but it is interesting nonetheless in the scope of what has happened during that time.

In many was it could be believed that a large part of what Caesar mentions about the Belgae being made of people across the east bank of the Rhine (that Caesar all calls 'Germans') could refer to these other arrivals from the Celtic areas of the Danube, and not Germans of the Jasdorf culture. We have archaeological evidence of Danubian Celts in the Belgic areas, but not Jasdorf Germans in the Belgic areas during this migration period.