[Videos] Shogun 2 Battle Commentaries [Feedback appreciated!]

[GoldenToad]

Hello,

I have recently started a delving into the complicated world of doing battle commmentaries. I have posted here because I would like to get some feedback on my commentary and what needs to be improved.

Thank you ever so much for taking the time to read this!

My first attempt



A 2v2 with Sepelio



I do have more videos, but I'd rather be a spammer, if you enjoy them please check out my channel for more.

[Nowake]

Huzzah GoldenToad, welcome to the .Org

As to feedback, hmm, I could provide a bit. There are many details that could be improved upon when it comes to Shogun 2 battle commentaries in general, and your broadcast is pretty similar to what most are considering to be the norm.
Your specific videos are to be appreciated for image clarity. You’ve also fixed your voice issues in the second commentary.

If you’d like to go beyond that, I would recommend a few features which would alleviate the amateurish state in which the developers have left replays:

1. Renounce presenting units one by one, by hovering over them. Simply make two lists and display them in the beginning of the battle.
2. Pause and present the field of battle, with its key characteristics and also stop over the places where the most intense fighting will take place, commenting on how the terrain will affect it.
3. Maximize the minimap and present the battle lines, with text displayed to explain what the main troop clumps are formed of predominantly.
4. Use the same minimap to give an overview of the battle before it is engaged. Split it into phases for the viewer, explain side-engagements and the moment they will occur. Remember that the new viewer is not able to take in the info during the actual replay without pausing and constantly checking the status of multiple points. Give him/her the opportunity to anticipate and connect the dots as events unfold beside the real-time commentary you provide, else one will never have a very clear picture.
5. Pause between the main battle phases you outline, providing maximized minimap images explaining the new situation at the beginning of each phase, as well as the troops still available to each player.
6. There’s a tendency for most commentators to zoom in a lot, presenting the clashes and what not. Don’t repeat this mistake. This presents a battle, at all times the viewer must have the widest angle on maneuvers.
7. There is a mod allowing you to zoom out a lot more than the default. Use it to obtain eagle-eye views of the battlefield, it greatly enhances the amount of visual information one can take in at a time.

Again, I find most of the fault for the state of battle commentaries to belong to the poor replay features provided by the developers. Yet commentators could compensate for these issues to a large degree. Currently, that doesn’t happen, and while it is quite great to have these type of broadcasts in what consolidating the community is concerned, the quality of the battle presentation remains deplorable and very far from its potential.
Nonetheless, good work and again, I like the image clarity, if you aim to be on par with most broadcasters, you’re not very far already

[GoldenToad]

Thank you for your comprehensive feedback. I have already improved some of those things;

1. In my later videos I have stopped talking about all of the units and I now just give a general overview of the armies and what their purpose and general strategy is.

I hadn't thought about using the minimap more to be honest, I have another battle replay that I need to commentate on, I will try to incorparate some of the points that you have made. I'll post the result later on.

Thanks again!

Here is another commentary that I have done, taking your criticism into account.

[Sp4]

Turn down the sound of the game, I could barely understand you most of the time.

Nevermind, I did not watch the second one yet =p

[Andres]

Thanks for sharing this GoldenToad :bow:

[GoldenToad]

Thanks for sharing this GoldenToad :bow:

Thank you ever so much, I really appreciate it!

Here's another, earlier video:

How to throw away a ranged advantage

[Gregoshi]

Thanks for sharing the commentaries GoldenToad.

As for feedback (Nowake's list is very good):

1) Make a cheat sheet of notes for yourself to reference while you are making the commentary, particularly of key events so you don't miss them - like the charge of your lone flanking cav in this last video. You want to make sure the camera is there capture these key events. The Order of Battle for each player would also be helpful for you if you don't display them on the screen as Nowake suggested. This would prevent you from having to hunt through their armies during the replay to get the composition.

2) Overall you diction is very good. There are moments where, for a sentence or two, you speak faster and the words slur together making it hard to understand.

3) The video quality is good but don't rely upon the viewer to see any popup text. The text is still blurry and the unit types may be hard to distinguish depending upon the colour of the unit and their location (in the woods, etc). Tell the viewer the key bits of information.

4) Linger a bit longer when pointing out things on the screen. Your are leading the viewer and you know where you are going, what you are seeing and where to look. The viewer is following and tends to lag behind. We are trying to watch the video and follow the mouse pointer when you show something new - you are just watching the video and you know where you are moving the mouse pointer. We need to catch up and then take in the scene you are highlighting. For example, a few times you mention you are executing a "hammer and anvil". Pause the replay and show us the hammer and then show us the anvil so where know where to focus our attention. This is especially important if there are a lot of units on the screen.

5) Well done with the analysis of the action. I also like the inclusion of a summary of in-game chat banter between you and your opponent.

Keep at it. I look forward to seeing more.

[frogbeastegg]

Welcome to the org, GoldenToad.

I've just watched your fourth video. I've been wanting to watch some since you first posted the topic but haven't had time until now. While the others have done a good job of giving suggestions for future videos, I thought I'd say what I thought stood out.

First of all, you picked a very good battle to base the video on. It was much more interesting than the usual toe-to-toe slugging matches, with lots of movement and some different tactics.

The way you occasionally used the game's fast forward feature was excellent. Some videos make the viewer sit through the entire replay at standard pace. That's ok when the commentator has something to say, but in some cases the commentator runs out of observations and the whole video becomes boring. Much better to zoom past a bit of marching and keep the tempo even.

I also liked the way that you gave criticisms and highlighted mistakes for both sides, not just one. Not all videos do that. It's a nice learning tool for other players.

Zooming in on the damage done by the ranged units was a nice touch. A close-up of men being picked off gives a much better feel for the damage being done, as the zoomed out strategic view can be quite impersonal. It also helps to keep viewing interesting during the ranged duel, which can sometimes be a little dull to watch if little else is happening on the field.

You had a good mix of volume levels in that video. I could hear your voice clearly, and still hear the game in the background.

Overall it was a very nice video, so well done! I hope you post some more.

[Gregoshi]

You had a good mix of volume levels in that video. I could hear your voice clearly, and still hear the game in the background.

Thanks froggy, I forgot to mention that. From the first video to that last one, much improvement in volume of the battle. In the first video, the battle sounds drowned out most of your comments. In this last one, there is just enough sound of the battle in the background to make it interesting without impacting your commentary.

[GoldenToad]

2) Overall you diction is very good. There are moments where, for a sentence or two, you speak faster and the words slur together making it hard to understand.

Thank you, I do have a problem with that, one of the reasons why I started the channel was to try and get rid of it; I think quicker than I can talk, kinda makes it hard to get all the words out.

Keep at it. I look forward to seeing more.

Thank you, this has been the best feedback I have recieved; it's so in depth, I'll use a cheat sheet next time. Is it alright for me to keep posting my epsiodes on here for feedback? Would you be willing to continue to nudge me in the right direction?

Welcome to the org, GoldenToad.

Thanks for the intro! Whilst you're here, I'd like to say thanks for your guides! Especially the Shogun 2 one, as a long time RTW fan it was a bit baffling for me at first.

Also, thanks for pointing out the things you enjoyed, I'll continue to include them!

[Nowake]

Hello again GT

Is it alright for me to keep posting my epsiodes on here for feedback? Would you be willing to continue to nudge me in the right direction?

You’re the one doing all the work mister! Pretty sure no one would mind if you’d showcase it here as you go and, considering how much untapped potential battle reviews have in a game like Shogun 2, I do not think it’s a bother for us to support anyone with the drive and time to work on them; we’re only providing a handful of suggestions after all.

I believe Gregoshi intends you to use sheets to cover a broader range of topics than simply the order of battle. Just remember upon first viewing of the replay to note the time showed by the battle-clock at each key moment you feel deserves extra commentary, then write down your thoughts and start inserting the explanations right before the events happen. As frog wrote, you used fast forward quite well, don’t hold back from using the slider to pace the events in order for you to finish your ideas; it would also prevent you from stumbling upon words every now and then as you observed yourself.

I’ll further agree with frog that close-ups on the massacre done by your troops’ missiles was an inspired idea. I would keep to my opinion that zooming in during melee clashes is counterproductive though, I was very frustrated in the past when commentators would do it to show me the animations when the whole battle was evolving around them. If you do it, it would be a great kindness to your viewers if you’d make sure nothing else is happening

To further explain my point about how to use the minimap at the beginning of the battle; it requires a bit more involvement though and you might not find it necessary. Nonetheless, check this standard (for historical commentary) depiction of events. I am unsure if at this point you use an editing program, it will allow you to enlarge the minimap and insert text and arrows, as well as transition visually from one minimap caption to the next. For convenience, most battle accounts will split the events very broadly, in two-three phases, and so you’d need two or three captions.
E.g. in your fourth replay, you have an initial phase consisting of your opponent crossing the river and the subsequent skirmish; the middle phase made up from his advance during your retreat towards higher ground and the last phase, including the melee and the mop up. At the beginning of each of these moments, you can capture an image of the enlarged minimap and then edit it a bit in the same way the map I provided shows -- the terrain and troops are already displayed, you'd just have to add general directions of attack and bits of text explaining if we're talking about infantry or cavalry near each main clump of troops. You’d thus be able to give an abstract account of the battle in your preamble, allowing your viewers to know what to expect and follow on the screen.
This also helps tremendously to synthesize the account mentally for everyone, making it more memorable and clear.


In closing I should add that you should not feel compelled to include all features at once, especially since some battles may not even need every one of them. Just polish here and there at your leisure

[GoldenToad]

To further explain my point about how to use the minimap at the beginning of the battle; it requires a bit more involvement though and you might not find it necessary. Nonetheless, check this standard (for historical commentary) depiction of events. I am unsure if at this point you use an editing program, it will allow you to enlarge the minimap and insert text and arrows, as well as transition visually from one minimap caption to the next. For convenience, most battle accounts will split the events very broadly, in two-three phases, and so you’d need two or three captions.
E.g. in your fourth replay, you have an initial phase consisting of your opponent crossing the river and the subsequent skirmish; the middle phase made up from his advance during your retreat towards higher ground and the last phase, including the melee and the mop up. At the beginning of each of these moments, you can capture an image of the enlarged minimap and then edit it a bit in the same way the map I provided shows -- the terrain and troops are already displayed, you'd just have to add general directions of attack and bits of text explaining if we're talking about infantry or cavalry near each main clump of troops. You’d thus be able to give an abstract account of the battle in your preamble, allowing your viewers to know what to expect and follow on the screen.
This also helps tremendously to synthesize the account mentally for everyone, making it more memorable and clear.

I use Power Director 9, I'm not too sure about using arrows with the mini-map. I will give it a go, just to see if it is possible. If I can't use arrows then I'll wave my mouse around the mini-map and explain it. I think that the problem with using the mini-map to explain what is happening, is that it is impossible to distinguish between cavalry, infantry and bows.

[Sp4]

It is actually really nice and interesting to watch/listen to them =D

Keep it up.

[GoldenToad]

It is actually really nice and interesting to watch/listen to them =D

Keep it up.

Thank you ever so much!

EDIT: It's taken a bit longer to do the next commentary which will include some of your feedback, the first time I started and was interrupted half way through, the second time went perfectly, I just forgot to record the video!

[frogbeastegg]

Thanks for the intro! Whilst you're here, I'd like to say thanks for your guides! Especially the Shogun 2 one, as a long time RTW fan it was a bit baffling for me at first.

Also, thanks for pointing out the things you enjoyed, I'll continue to include them!

Thank you

I shall continue to point out anything I think of in your videos. Please do keep posting them, it's nice to see someone with a passion for creating and improving.

I’ll further agree with frog that close-ups on the massacre done by your troops’ missiles was an inspired idea. I would keep to my opinion that zooming in during melee clashes is counterproductive though, I was very frustrated in the past when commentators would do it to show me the animations when the whole battle was evolving around them. If you do it, it would be a great kindness to your viewers if you’d make sure nothing else is happening

Yes, I agree with this. Zooming creates a moment of visual excitement at the cost of wider situational awareness. Used carefully it can be a powerful tool in keeping viewer interest flowing; used badly it can leave the viewer confused and frustrated.

[GoldenToad]

Terrain's not everything



I have tried to add the mini-map in, personally I don't think that I did it justice, ideally I would have liked to have had different segments of the battle, and split them up with a different mini-map for each part. Much like Peter Snow's animated board. Unfortunately the way that I recorded it didn't lend itself to it. It was the fourth time I had recorded it, and I didn't really want to re-record it again, I promise that I will improve it!

Peter Snow's board



It's at 4:35

[Gregoshi]

Sorry for the delay in watching your latest commentary GT. Halloween weekend was rather busy around my house.

The mini-map at the beginning was pretty well done, but wasn't on for very long (15-20 seconds?) and there was no commentary with it. Keep working out the kinks on that. The main negative on this last video was that you seemed like you were rushing your explanations of the action both verbally and visually at times - even when the replay was paused. You have lots of interesting things to say, so take the time to explain or illustrate your points at a more relaxed pace. If your commentary is good (and it is), you have no need to fear for the viewer switching it off due to "slow" pacing.

Aside from that, this last video was even better at using the pause feature or adjusting the pace of the replay. Also, you did much better explaining the action: illustrating the hammer and anvils, showing the bad clumping of the enemy and how you could exploit it, and the sweep down the line near the end of the battle pointing out the mistakes made by the enemy at each major point or the effective use of the forces by you and your ally. If anything, the video and your commentary got stronger as it proceeded and the last 1/2 or 1/3 was very good.

May I have another?

[GoldenToad]

The mini-map at the beginning was pretty well done, but wasn't on for very long (15-20 seconds?) and there was no commentary with it. Keep working out the kinks on that.

Frogbeastegg and I had a good, long chat about this, I am going to work on this more. If I recall correctly, the intro was six seconds long.

The main negative on this last video was that you seemed like you were rushing your explanations of the action both verbally and visually at times - even when the replay was paused.

I think that the main reason for this was because most commentators that I watch deride the pause button and using it; on reflection I guess that it should not have been a factor in deciding that, seeing as I'm not most other commentators! I will ignore this from now on though, I'm aiming to make the videos more informative as a whole.

You may have another soon, I am releasing my (premade) RTW Let's Plays during the week because of time restraints :(

[Gregoshi]

I think that the main reason for this was because most commentators that I watch deride the pause button and using it...(

Think of a guided tour of a building or historic sight. It wouldn't be much of a tour if the guide jogged from place to place. They also stop at key spots to talk about the location and/or events that happened there. Sometimes, the action in the replay requires more explanation that a running replay will allow, so using the pause button only makes sense. If the viewer can't follow the action, then the commentary is useless. I think you are on the right track by using the pause button and adjusting the replay speed as needed regardless of conventional commentator "wisdom".

[GoldenToad]

Thanks, that analogy makes a lot more sense. I shall attempt to do that more.

[Gregoshi]

Thanks, that analogy makes a lot more sense. I shall attempt to do that more.

Just for the record, don't feel obligated to take my suggestions. You need to decide whether or not the feedback is valid and makes sense for your vision of your commentaries. There will be no hurt feelings here if you ignore any/all suggestions I make.

[GoldenToad]

Just for the record, don't feel obligated to take my suggestions. You need to decide whether or not the feedback is valid and makes sense for your vision of your commentaries. There will be no hurt feelings here if you ignore any/all suggestions I make.

I'd rather slow it down than have to miss out some of my commentary. It didn't seem rushed to me, although I didn't watch this one all the way through, just enough to make sure the voice levels were the right level.

EDIT: I have a really croaky voice at the moment so I haven't been able to do a video recently, I am working on it thouh. Sorry for the wait.

[GoldenToad]

Unfortunately I'm not going to be doing any more Shogun 2 battle commentaries in the forseeable future. I explain more in this video:



tl;dr Thank you ever so much for your support and advice, you have really helped me to improve. I am going to stick around as I love this community, so many nice people.

[GoldenToad]

I lied; I'm back.

The latest patches that have been released for the game have tempted me back. I have been ranking up my main, leadership general off camera; however, since the latest patch allows you to have two Shogun 2 avatars at once, I have decided to start a new general as primarily a melee general. I shall be bringing you every battle that I fight. So far I have eight battles to show you. My tally stands at seven wins and a loss, although on the surface I appear to be doing well, there are still many things that I can learn. I would like to invite you to come along with me on my journey to level ten.

EDIT: My first battle with my prospective melee general!

[frogbeastegg]

Welcome back.

That was a very brief, brutal battle! Nice to see some RotS units in action. As usual, it's nice to see you pointing our your mistakes along with good moves by your opponent. That makes the video more educational.

I don't know if it was due to youtube being busy, my connection being slow, or something else, but this video didn't want to play smoothly. It kept pausing every 20-30 seconds.

[GoldenToad]

Welcome back.

That was a very brief, brutal battle! Nice to see some RotS units in action. As usual, it's nice to see you pointing our your mistakes along with good moves by your opponent. That makes the video more educational.

Thank you again for your feedback, it's very much appreciated!

I don't know if it was due to youtube being busy, my connection being slow, or something else, but this video didn't want to play smoothly. It kept pausing every 20-30 seconds.

I'm going to say that it is most probably YouTube as they play flawlessly on my computer.