Support for Gun Control in US at its Lowest Level in More than 50 Years

[ajaxfetish]

There are plenty in Europe and Asia that have no gun crimes. Note that guns make it easier to hurt a person. Having no guns would make that crime more unlikely to happen. I'll name a few countries of a lot of countries that have no gun crime: UK, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Cambodia, Vietnam, China, etc. I for one know for certain that the civilians in UK, Singapore, South Korea, Japan and Cambodia don't own guns and there is no gun crime there. I also know for certain that the murder rate in those countries are much much lower than the US.

Data taken from this 2002 WHO report, listing numbers for the most recent data-year available between 1990 and 2000.

Gun-related homicides

UK: 45 (1999)
Japan: 22 (1997)
South Korea: 19 (1997)
Singapore: 0 (1998)
Taiwan: no data
Cambodia: no data
Vietnam: no data
China: 3 (1996, data only for Hong Kong)

45 ≠ zero
22 ≠ zero
19 ≠ zero
3 ≠ zero

I'm not sure whether those countries with no data were excluded because there was no firearm homicide or because they chose not to report their data to the WHO. Considering there was data for Hong Kong, but not for the rest of China, I wouldn't be surprised if at least some cases were due to a lack of transparency. Also, these figures cover only homicides, not other gun crime. Singapore had 5 gun-related suicides in that year, if you include those as instances of gun crime, and I have no idea what the figures might be for armed robbery or any other form of gun crime. As Centurion pointed out, there is a difference between zero gun crime and less gun crime. Try to be accurate in the claims you make. If you want to make a case that many countries have lower gun crime rates than the U.S., you're on firm ground. If you claim that countries like Japan, South Korea, and the UK have zero gun crime, you're simply wrong.

Ajax

[Beskar]

45 ≠ zero
22 ≠ zero
19 ≠ zero
3 ≠ zero

...If you want to make a case that many countries have lower gun crime rates than the U.S., you're on firm ground. If you claim that countries like Japan, South Korea, and the UK have zero gun crime, you're simply wrong.

That is being rather pedantic though, he is evidently meaning relative to the numbers in the United States.

Using your own source:
United States of America (1998) 11802

Now let's compare it to the quoted, lets take the highest one.
UK: 45 (1999)

11802 versus 45.

Why "zero" is incorrect, he is simply using the literary device to insinuate that it is effectively 'nothing'/'zero' in comparison to the United States to make forth his point and considering the difference, I feel there should be some fair usage. It isn't as if the United States number was 68, then that would be raising eyebrows at his use of that particular literary device.

[ajaxfetish]

Well, I'm feeling rather like a pedant tonight, and I was getting frustrated by Centurion and Shaka_Khan talking past each other on this point. As I said, lower gun crime? Sure. Obscenely lower? Why not. Zero? False.

Ajax

[PanzerJaeger]

That is being rather pedantic though, he is evidently meaning relative to the numbers in the United States.

Using your own source:
United States of America (1998) 11802

Now let's compare it to the quoted, lets take the highest one.
UK: 45 (1999)

11802 versus 45.

Why "zero" is incorrect, he is simply using the literary device to insinuate that it is effectively 'nothing'/'zero' in comparison to the United States to make forth his point and considering the difference, I feel there should be some fair usage. It isn't as if the United States number was 68, then that would be raising eyebrows at his use of that particular literary device.

If one compares those numbers to population size, they might as well both be 'zero' if we're using the term figuratively. The dirty little secret that those quoting stats from other countries never mention is that the chance of getting into a violent crime in the US involving a gun may be statistically higher than in the UK or the Asian nations mentioned, but it is still incredibily small. The anecdote expressed in this thread seems to be more of a function of a fearful imagination than reality. Is anyone really deathly afraid to ride a scooter in San Francisco for fear of getting shot?

The question is: Do we want to remove a fundamental freedom many Americans cherish and enjoy to to move the number from e-5 to e-7? (And that assumes that gun control does reduce gun crime, which has not at all been established.)

[Centurion1]

its not my fault if people simply want to ignore what i say and twist it to their own devices. I said zero, when I say zero i imply a value of 0 or a value of nothing if you prefer. I reiterated it multiple times.