French Paper Offices Bombed Over A Joke

[Rhyfelwyr]

So..what is your point? Nobody is arguing that we shouldn't satirise Islam.

I don't think they should satirise it in such a manner.

I guess it was supposed to be clever or funny or something but it wasn't. All it did was offend people, it didn't add anything to anything.

Honestly it feels like nowadays people take their liberties as a license to behave in the worst ways they can imagine.

Sure you can scream about your rights I'm not trying to take them away from you, but what happened to just choosing to be respectful?

Everything should be subjected to satire. I think that's the key message here.

I don't like this overly-competitive approach to the 'marketplace of ideas', where we are told to take a Darwinian approach towards beliefs so that only the strongest survive. As if we in the west have to brutally hack away at Islam until it either disappears or conforms to our own belief systems.

We should just chill out and respect others beliefs. Not because of the validity of the beliefs themselves, but because of the fact that they are held so dear to people.

Otherwise all this confrontation just alienates people.

Instead of always focusing on our right to be insensitive, why don't we just try being nice to people?

[Hax]

I don't like this overly-competitive approach to the 'marketplace of ideas', where we are told to take a Darwinian approach towards beliefs so that only the strongest survive. As if we in the west have to brutally hack away at Islam until it either disappears or conforms to our own belief systems.

Not Islam. Islamism and radicalism, perhaps, but not Islam.

We should just chill out and respect others beliefs. Not because of the validity of the beliefs themselves, but because of the fact that they are held so dear to people.

Not when these beliefs are in total opposition to our ideals. While the threat of Islamic radicalism in the West has often been overestimated, it is not something that should be left as it is. It is to be utterly beat down through intellectual debate and indeed, satire. It's what put the coffin in the nail of the religious monopoly on civil affairs during the Enlightenment, and to me, one of the most valued traditions here.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not Islam. Islamism and radicalism, perhaps, but not Islam.



Not when these beliefs are in total opposition to our ideals. While the threat of Islamic radicalism in the West has often been overestimated, it is not something that should be left as it is. It is to be utterly beat down through intellectual debate and indeed, satire. It's what put the coffin in the nail of the religious monopoly on civil affairs during the Enlightenment, and to me, one of the most valued traditions here.

Hmmm. I think that Europeans are aware now that Islam(ists) are the only people who do this. Sure, the IRA blew stuff up, and were much better at it than European Muslims, but they were not really a religious group, they saw themselves as an indiginous resistence movements. These radical Muslims want nothing less than to destroy our civilisations, just because they hate it.

My conclusion is this: they should be ignored until or unless they become a genuine military threat, then they should be brutally suppressed. It is, frankly, incumbent on Muslims to mock these people as idiots just as it is incumbent on Christians to point out the logical and theological fallacies in Evangelicalism.

[Hax]

These radical Muslims want nothing less than to destroy our civilisations, just because they hate it.

Hmm, this is actually a less educated opinion than I'm used to hearing from you, PVC.

I wouldn't say that radical Muslims want to destroy western civilisation. When you look at the demographic background of radical Muslims, you'll find that they are mostly younger and well-educated (western-educated, in fact) with very little background in actual Islamic theology. I think you'll find that most of them don't even visit mosques regularly and typically engage in such western practices that they find so horrific (prostitution, gambling and drinking). Very upset about a lot of things, but not serious jihadis, really.

There are some few very sad misguided people amongst them, but they represent the smallest minority of a minority.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hmm, this is actually a less educated opinion than I'm used to hearing from you, PVC.

I am by nature a very violent man, this topic gets my blood up and I tend to abandon my regular reserve.

Let me try again.

Not withstanding your point about many of the young European Muslims' lifestyles, the fact remains that they locate Western culture, which is essentially Romano-Greek with a Germanic twist and a Christian gloss, as the Other, and they attack it any time they percieve it to threaten their interpretation of their religion. As to their theological ignorance - the same is true of hardline Evangelical Christians. Any well read Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Zorastrian scholar will appreciate that the aim of all those religions is essentially the same: to bring men to a better relationship with the Lord God. The fact is, I would willingly go to war with Muslims who tried to spread their faith through conquest, but I wouldn't hate them for it.

[gaelic cowboy]

Hmm, this is actually a less educated opinion than I'm used to hearing from you, PVC.

I wouldn't say that radical Muslims want to destroy western civilisation. When you look at the demographic background of radical Muslims, you'll find that they are mostly younger and well-educated (western-educated, in fact) with very little background in actual Islamic theology. I think you'll find that most of them don't even visit mosques regularly and typically engage in such western practices that they find so horrific (prostitution, gambling and drinking). Very upset about a lot of things, but not serious jihadis, really.

There are some few very sad misguided people amongst them, but they represent the smallest minority of a minority.

Maybe thats because they have a differant idea of what western civilisation is yes/no??? when you read there statements they have an awful lot to say in the them about the family and the womans place in it.

They look at all the freedoms from freedom of religion to the freedom of a womens body and see weakness, then they equate wearing jeans and eating burgers as West when in fact those are really just byproducts.

of course the big open secret is you cant hope to defeat the West unless you become more like them.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Not when these beliefs are in total opposition to our ideals. While the threat of Islamic radicalism in the West has often been overestimated, it is not something that should be left as it is. It is to be utterly beat down through intellectual debate and indeed, satire. It's what put the coffin in the nail of the religious monopoly on civil affairs during the Enlightenment, and to me, one of the most valued traditions here.

I agree that it is a problem when people don't share some of our more basic beliefs like freedom of expression etc. But I disagree that "intellectual debate" or satire is the answer to the problem. Do either of these actually engage extremists?

Intellectual debate has its place but it doesn't really stir up the ordinary person. Things like rhetoric, identity, gut-feelings/prejudices etc will always trump it easily.

With the IRA they did have a valid point that broadly speaking, the English invaded Ireland and they were fighting the occupier.

You sound like Colonel Gadaffi.

[rory_20_uk]

You sound like Colonel Gadaffi.

Yeah... Hitler was a vegetarian and was against smoking. I am against smoking... so I sound like Hitler...?

I imagine Gadaffi also ordered a coffee, and so have I. The similarities just stack up.

[Beskar]

I am against smoking...

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yeah... Hitler was a vegetarian and was against smoking. I am against smoking... so I sound like Hitler...?

I imagine Gadaffi also ordered a coffee, and so have I. The similarities just stack up.

Yeah you got me my point was that you support the massacre of Libyan civilians, and not that you share Gadaffi's well-known take on the sitation in Norn Iron which is not so much black and white as it is plain wrong.

C'mon, "the English invaded Ireland", you srs?

[gaelic cowboy]

C'mon, "the English invaded Ireland", you srs?

Well to quote Tommy Tiernan "it wasn't the Mexicans"

[Greyblades]

C'mon, "the English invaded Ireland", you srs?

...Well we kinda did, several times, even back when we called ourselves Norman. We have been kicking the crud out of eachother since the 12th century.

[rory_20_uk]

Yeah you got me my point was that you support the massacre of Libyan civilians...

What foreigners do to themselves in their own ghastly country is none of my concern. I merely ask that they don't come over here and do it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

C'mon, "the English invaded Ireland", you srs?

It is true, Rhy, notwithstanding the complex subsequent history.

[Rhyfelwyr]

What invasion are you all talking about? The Norman one? Because that is not in the slightest bit related to the (Provisional)IRA and their fight to free the "6 occupied counties".

I am just bemused at Rory talking about an "English" occupation when Ireland had only ever been incorporated into the British state, and the only population group the Irish are fighting against is a largely Scottish one.

What foreigners do to themselves in their own ghastly country is none of my concern. I merely ask that they don't come over here and do it.

I share this sentiment.