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  1. #1
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Considering the legal framework for abortion

    Threads addressing issues such as abortion have a tendency to closure for much the same reasons as constructive debate on legislation tends towards failure - entrenched positions. I would like to see if we can revisit the topic in a rational manner and - whilst consensus might prove beyond reach - move towards a proposed legislative framework that the majority might support. I'm not seeking to address right and wrong so much as how we deal with abortion in law.

    To set context, I would note that to my understanding, a major battleground for legislative evolution is the United States, where the political framework is failing on so many fronts that require compromise. In this, the Backroom perhaps represents a similar microcosm. There may be other administrations that suffer the same paralysis - it would interesting for contributors from those countries to outline the specific challenges. I shall no doubt, approach the problem from a somewhat Europe-centric point-of-view.

    My own personal position is this:

    1) I believe that the foetus has rights as a human being from conception and that morally, abortion is wrong. I would like to see the end of abortion as an option for dealing with unwanted pregnancies. This is a position partly rooted in my Catholic upbringing and the Church's teachings, but also my wider belief in human rights derived from a belief in the sanctity of same developed outside any specific religious framework.
    2) I believe that a woman has the right to control and choose what happens with her body and that whilst the foetus is resident and dependent on that body and her choices, there exists a potential conflict of rights. Whilst the adult woman is completely responsible for the well-being of any foetus she carries, she is correctly the decision maker in regard to that foetus. No-one else can exercise this choice on her behalf, least of all a government. Whereas from position (1) above, I contend there is a moral responsibility that the woman ought to undertake, my moral viewpoint (particularly as a man) cannot bind her since we are considering an entirely dependent being. I also recognise that throughout history, whether legal or not, if a woman so chooses, an abortion will happen. Indeed, such loss happens spontaneously as well as by deliberate action. Thus there is a pragmatic recognition of the real world that must be taken into any account: A woman has choice whether government grants a legal right or not.
    3) I am, by inclination and practice, a conservative (though perhaps not in the modern political sense) and a believer in small government where administrations interfere as little as is practical in the lives of their citizens. Therefore, I have an instinctive aversion to legislation which seeks to enforce social moralities, particularly those that rely on religious grounds as there are so many religions and so much inconsistency in their advocacy. Equally in my book, conservatives are by nature pragmatic and recognisant of both personal responsibilities and those of the wider state should it advocate or impose a position by law. Extreme positions are by definition radical, and thus one should avoid extremist or fundamentalist options.

    So, as with the wider debate, there is a conflict between my personal views. In my ideal solution, the starting point is to address unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Appropriate provision of transparent, comprehensive sex education (and wider educational achievement) for all must be a starting point, along with a consistent moral framework from both religious and secular authorities that explains and teaches - but does not hector or demand - the responsibilities inherent in sexual relationships. One cannot legislate human behaviour, but one can inform and set an example. (It goes without saying that I am not a fan of current sexual mores, which I would view as irresponsible at best - but it is not for me to legislate my views, but hope that others might come to agree with me through example and data).

    Given that in any society, not everyone is going to adopt a set position, unwanted pregnancies will still occur. I would like to see the state encourage and incentivise adoption, so that more women might choose to go to term knowing that their child will be quickly taken into a new family and given the chance of a good life. I find it insane that we spend so much money on IVF treatments and the like when we also abort many viable children. Adoption should be seen as a great good, and a first choice. A loving, positive choice that women may take - when I take my position as pro-choice, this is one of the choices I should mean. I find it unconscionable that many pro-life proponents tend to portray a great deal of concern for the foetus, but very little commitment to the fate of the child once born. Yes, this probably means state taxes (given that my preferred solution through charities tends not to get a great deal of private funding - which is odd, given the numbers of those who profess pro-life attitudes).

    Failing the above, there is no way a civilised society can condemn women to backstreet butchers armed with knitting needles, and therefore a legal method of abortion must be available. As noted above, my proposed compromise to the conflict of morality and pragmatism is viability: abortion should be freely available up to the age of consistent viability plus two weeks (which on current understandings is about 24 weeks I believe). It is at this point that the foetus - now able to survive on its own more often than not - acquires rights that can be guaranteed without the consent or agency of the mother - in other words, it becomes a viable human being. Those rights pertain prior to this point in theory, but are unenforceable, and thus moot. There should be very few cases where the choice to abort the foetus cannot be made within that early period of time, therefore any later term abortions would have to be decided only through the intervention of a judge, and that rarely. The presumption for any later term application for an abortion would be that the child now has the right to life and should be brought to term.

    So, to summarise: Legislation should be pro-choice (i.e. the choice resides with the woman and solely with her, with no requirement for her to justify her decision to anyone) with abortions legal until the 24th week. Past that, any application would be granted only on judicial review with the default position that the child has full human rights. Concurrent with this, adoption should be made considerably easier and incentivised through tax allowances for the new parents.

    This is not very far from the position taken by most European governments. Roe vs Wade appears to have hamstrung any such approach in the US legislature, as the pro-choice lobby hangs on to the ruling for grim death lest the equally determined pro-life lobby use any movement to outlaw abortion altogether.

    I'd be interested in other people's views as to how they resolve the inherent conflicts, preferably without throwaway lines about religious stricture or secular immorality - the right to life is something we should consider very carefully and consistently, whether it be for a foetus, a soldier, a death row inmate, or indeed, for any moment of the human condition.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 10-25-2011 at 07:45.
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  2. #2
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    I would agree that 24 weeks is a sensible date at the moment. If survival rates in terms of mortality AND morbidity were to drastically improve this would need to be reviewed. Past this point I agree that it should be a review. I would prefer it were to be undertaken by a panel of experts relevant to the case - be that Psychiatrists, Obstetricians or Gynaecologists etc. Viability of the foetus is something for the panel to decide on - as I would hope that in a lot of these cases the whole point is that there was some massive medical condition meaning that they were a dud - e.g. microcephaly.

    Post 24 weeks it can survive more often than not with massive support by a specialist team of experts and a lot of medication and devices. They are far from independent - but then even at term babies would survive hours without their parents providing warmth and sustenance.

    There are enough children not being adopted without adding more to the market. I do not think that the state should be there to subsidise this. Adoption should be made easier, however. Same sex couples? Fine. Ones without children? OK. Over 40? Why not.

    I note that in your example the father is as always completely excluded from either moral or legal rights. His input isn't even mentioned beyond that of a sperm donor, be that a one night stand or the fact the couple had been trying for children for a length of time. No need to justify her decision to him either. The usual take on equality - all equal, but women have some areas that are of course theirs alone - as is taking a baby to term based upon a failure of contraception from a one night stand. This is one area of conflict that I am afraid I do not have any workable framework for, but I am surprised that you didn't even mention it.

    On a completely tangential issue, "the right to life" is a very modern construction which is paid lip-service to by the majority of the world's population. It is inconsistently applied based on time, place, wealth and even ethnicity. I disagree that any organism has the "right to life", and like any other right it is something that is gained and can also be lost.

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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    here is my position:

    1) the fetus is a living human being, this is not under discussion
    2) the fetus is only alive because the woman's body is directly sustaining it, therefore, even considering point 1), the woman has the ultimate right to decide she does not wish her body to continue to take part in that situation.
    3) nobody is saying that an abortion is a good or desirable thing, but even if it is can be found distasteful by some people that does not invalidate 2)
    4) in order to reach a desirable balance point between 2) and 3) abortion by choice of the woman or due to rape should happen as soon as possible, both for medical safety reasons and to avoid harming susceptibilities in the society. (first trimester, 10 weeks...or similar value)
    5) an abortion due to health risks to the mother outranks point 4) and can take place at any point in the pregnancy if deemed absolutely necessary in medical terms.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    Point 5 is a minefield of potential problems. The easiest one is "mother will kill herself due to depression if pregnancy continues". Other one is what is the percentage is 95% chance of mother will die? Or 80%? Or what about not mortality, but morbidity. Loss of a leg OK? One eye? Both? Who draws the line - and can the doctors get sued for all manner of things whichever decision they reach?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    I am very close to this debate personally because my mother tried to abort me but the doctors would not let her because I was 2 years old.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    I am very close to this debate personally because my mother tried to abort me but the doctors would not let her because I was 2 years old.
    I... was that a joke?
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I... was that a joke?
    He's deadly serious. His mother was HUGE! That's a longer gestation period than an elephant!


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  8. #8
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Point 5 is a minefield of potential problems. The easiest one is "mother will kill herself due to depression if pregnancy continues". Other one is what is the percentage is 95% chance of mother will die? Or 80%? Or what about not mortality, but morbidity. Loss of a leg OK? One eye? Both? Who draws the line - and can the doctors get sued for all manner of things whichever decision they reach?
    in the US or in non litigiously crazy country? sorry couldn't resist :P
    but really, it's kinda true...it's just not a reality I am familiar with....over here "the doctor said the mother would die unless this was done" works just fine.
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
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    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by rory
    I note that in your example the father is as always completely excluded from either moral or legal rights. His input isn't even mentioned beyond that of a sperm donor, be that a one night stand or the fact the couple had been trying for children for a length of time. No need to justify her decision to him either. The usual take on equality - all equal, but women have some areas that are of course theirs alone - as is taking a baby to term based upon a failure of contraception from a one night stand. This is one area of conflict that I am afraid I do not have any workable framework for, but I am surprised that you didn't even mention it.
    Only a short intervention on this specific issue
    I do not see why there would ever be a dilemma.
    At most one could ensure a widely accessible and very simplified legal procedure where the couple would agree on the need for consent of both parties in regards to the fate of an eventual embryo resulting from their relationship.
    It is the only possible solution acknowledging a male’s right to safeguard the existence of his potential offspring through his own choice.
    Bar this type of pre-emptive legally binding agreement, the male completely waves off any rights by default, even if the father, once the pregnancy is underway, offers to raise the child on his own.


  10. #10
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    ...
    Oh come on BQ! Starting a thread like this just as I am going crazy studying for my midterms! Do you want to see me fail my classes? :P
    lol, I will exercise self-control, I will exercise self-control, I will...
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  11. #11
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    Excellent post by PVC, I'll not drag down this side of the debate by posting anything else...
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by PVC
    We should not think that simply because the fetus is largely or completely dependent on the mother for sustinence and survival it is any less an individual being.

    ...

    I cases where the issue is medical the decision to abort or not should be made by the doctor, based on his estimation of the likely survival of child and mother. No parents, as in Lemur's case, should ever have that decision inflicted upon them. There should be specific legal protection for doctors in this situation.
    If I read this right...in a case where there is a choice between:

    A) 40% chance of death for the mother. Guaranteed survival of baby.
    B) Abortion.

    You would say: A? Because they both weigh equally and the 100% > 40%.

    I think that's very wrong.

  13. #13
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    If I read this right...in a case where there is a choice between:

    A) 40% chance of death for the mother. Guaranteed survival of baby.
    B) Abortion.

    You would say: A? Because they both weigh equally and the 100% > 40%.

    I think that's very wrong.
    Why? Is one person's life worth more than another's?
    Honestly, I believe that abortion should be illegal other than in cases where a mother has a 50% or greater chance of dying. In those cases where you have two equally valuable and important lives with an equal chance at life or death, I think it should be the mother's choice to decide what will happen.
    Dammit, just when I promised that I would not get involved. :P
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Considering the legal framework for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    Why? Is one person's life worth more than another's?
    Honestly, I believe that abortion should be illegal other than in cases where a mother has a 50% or greater chance of dying. In those cases where you have two equally valuable and important lives with an equal chance at life or death, I think it should be the mother's choice to decide what will happen.
    Dammit, just when I promised that I would not get involved. :P
    Is that what you'd want if it was your wife?

    If you are sticking with "both lives equal" then you can't make 50% the cut off. At 90%, that's still less than 100%. And at a 100, you flip a coin, because there's no difference? That's nonsense.

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