Humbling courage

[Fragony]

Of course we are talking about Aliaa Magda Elmahdy, the naked Egyptian girl



Interview with my new heroin http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/19/wo...hdy/index.html

Gutmensch knows for a fact that it's simply isn't true because they know for a fact that all cultures are equal;

"Women under Islam will always be objects to use at home. The (sexism) against women in Egypt is unreal, but I am not going anywhere and will battle it 'til the end. Many women wear the veil just to escape the harassment and be able to walk the streets. I hate how society labels gays and lesbians as abnormal people."

Egyptian gays want to protest as well, 'you will not take this from us' is what they say. Is this important, hellyes

Aliaa Magda Elmahdy and the Egyptian gays, good luck to ya mia muca's

[naut]

No babes outside the babe thread.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

While I applaud the sentiment, and fully support it, the use of nudity by feminists has an ugly history of backfiring. The most important thing, though, is her point that women in countries like Egypt conform for fear of harassment, not out of choice.

[Fragony]

While I applaud the sentiment, and fully support it, the use of nudity by feminists has an ugly history of backfiring. The most important thing, though, is her point that women in countries like Egypt conform for fear of harassment, not out of choice.

I think it's really appropiate here, covering up vs full nudity. She couldn't have made a stronger statement.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think it's really appropiate here, covering up vs full nudity. She couldn't have made a stronger statement.

True, but I want to see the picture not because I want to appreciate her artistic and political point, but because I want to see a pretty girl in the nude.

Which is why I haven't looked it up.

[Fragony]

True, but I want to see the picture not because I want to appreciate her artistic and political point, but because I want to see a pretty girl in the nude.

Which is why I haven't looked it up.

Sexuality is in the intention, she just looks very vulnerable. Probably won't affect you that way

[Cute Wolf]

oh boy... she's really revolutionary!

but... hell yeah... I just hope that girl won't get any mistreatments or tortures from society there

ADD:
allready seen the photos... at least it was pretty artistic.
I bet if she was expelled from Egypt, I'm sure a lot of "good guys" in Europe and America will want to give her "help" and "shelter"

[Fragony]

oh boy... she's really revolutionary!

but... hell yeah... I just hope that girl won't get any mistreatments or tortures from society there

ADD:
allready seen the photos... at least it was pretty artistic.
I bet if she was expelled from Egypt, I'm sure a lot of "good guys" in Europe and America will want to give her "help" and "shelter"

heh she's welcome at maisson Frag, but I sure don't want to be the one explaining to her that progressive people have respect here, and that they will psycho-analyse her to find out why she got it all wrong

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Sexuality is in the intention, she just looks very vulnerable. Probably won't affect you that way

It's not about how the image will affect me, it's about me wanting to see her naked in order to objectify her as a sex object. Not something I'm poud of, but the point stands. modesty is the flip side of the self-control we expect from others. I restrain myself from looking, and in return I ask not to be tempted.

The problem with that is it's exactly the argument the bigots use, it's a slippery slope between recognising that we aren't Higher Beings shorn of our bodies, and oppression. The key, I believe, is reciprocal equalitiy and moderation. In this case, woman shouldn't have to cover up more than men, and both should be relatively uncovered because the more you cover the more you invite speculation.

[Fragony]

A covered woman is nothing to me, I don't see them as human beings, they are just things. To me in her nakedness she shows me who she really is, she's anything but an object. It's tragic but also beautiful

[rory_20_uk]

Women as a cohort are focused on things. Their genetic programming is to get someone who can provide for them and their offspring.

Men as a cohort are focused on women. Their genetic programming is to get fertile, healthy women to have many, healthy offspring.

So, men are keen to flash symbols of their status around and women are keen to show no wrinkles.

[Nowake]

Humbling courage?
Oh come on Frag, she’s dum as a door
Hosa quoted Thomas Sowell yesterday, his words fit this situation perfectly:

The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.

Fact of the matter is, they’re on the verge of holding elections and the secularist Egyptians are fighting desperately for a big chunk of the electorate. I.e. the segment that holds progressive (not as defined in the US) economic views yet who are socially conservative and upon whom the Salafis were already very efficiently impressing the image of decadence that they claim would come along with a victory of non-religious parties. And with mere weeks to the election, this idiot takes her clothes off, a move the Salafis must’ve labelled as God-sent.

Currently there are only seven days left until the election (November 28^th) and the Liberals are banging their heads against the wall trying to do damage-control instead of focusing on their talking points.

To be so feeble-minded to trade putting your foot on the neck of some religious freak on the corridors of the Shura (the upper house of the Parliament, currently dissolved – together with the lower house – by the Army) ulterior to winning the election for the pleasure of punching the political party that supports your views in the gut prior to the vote is criminal.

Her action is sure to cause a loss of votes; nevermind that it would’ve been so much more poignant to undertake it after November 28^th, either to signal the new era, in case of a Liberal victory, or the defiance of the secularists in case of their electoral defeat.

I’ve dealt with my share of self-righteous activists of this sort, the always ready to trade the long-term political game because “they cannot remain silent NOW!”, to not know for a fact that all they deserve is to (figuratively) eat *expletive* and die

[Nowake]

I do understand your position.
Yet, in my personal opinion, it is well-meant and misinformed, noble and perverse, all at once
While I cannot go in depth because I have to raise up early tomorrow, I will hastily clarify my premise.


The crux of the matter is that Egypt doesn’t have a system asking people for their trust at all at the moment. The battle for its future rages precisely at this point in time.


Lets anchor ourselves in facts before we go ahead though.
The Army has established Martial Law since February and the only legal framework is established by its edicts. However, the Army will cede its power after the elections of November 28^th. Thus the direction the country will take in the next decades hangs in the balance.

Take a peek towards the Iranian revolution. It was not a Shiite affair exclusively. There were many secularists and even communists amongst the revolutionaries at the time and you can see their children today marching against the regime in Tehran. The end of the insurrection found the Ayatollahs in a very strong position however and, after the referendum put Khomeini in power, they dispensed with those children’s parents after the revolution succeeded to bring about what’s now thirty years of theocracy. Khomeini stated: “Do not use this term [democratic]. That is the Western style". There’s a very good book on the subject, Iran since the Revolution – the most telling quote: “what began as an authentic and anti-dictatorial popular revolution based on a broad coalition of all anti-Shah forces was soon transformed into an Islamic fundamentalist power-grab”.

The Salafis find themselves between a rock and a hard place in Egypt in the event they wish to attempt to eliminate their opposition in the same way. They do not have enough popular support to drown out the message of the Liberals and they cannot force their way into power because of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, which is basically the junta now leading Egypt under Mubarak’s ex-Defense Minister Tantawi. These military leaders sided with the population in February, dissolved the Parliament and dispensed with the Constitution – the first being populated by Mubarak’s straw-men and the Constitution upholding the old state of affairs of course – and they announced completely free and fair elections by the end of 2011. I won’t go into the details of why, suffice to say Mubarak’s dictatorship persecuted Muslims and Liberals in equal measure.

Thus the Salafis have to stake it all on this electoral process.
At this point in time, the Muslim Brotherhood backed Freedom and Justice Party sits at around ~30%, with the main Liberal party Wafd polling around ~25%. Other Salafis Parties like Nour hold around 10%, while there is a plethora of minor organizations, nostalgic of Nasser or led by the followers of Sadat (Mubarak’s predecessor) or etc. which would be inclined to side with Wafd and thus would equal the balance in a coalition government. 55% of the electorate declares itself undecided at this point and this is the segment they all attempt to cut themselves a large chunk out of.



The scandal this girl provoked in Egypt, blown out of proportion because of the attention and sympathy received from the western media, simply transformed her action into a major event of this election, outraging many of those 55% undecided voters. I’m all for her exercising her freedom and subsequently bask in the spotlight of interviews from CNN to the Ulan-Bator Herald, but to admire her action is wrong on so many counts; if the Salafis take power she may have contributed to the suffering of millions of her countrymen because she would not wait two weeks with updating her Twitter account.

While the Muslim Brotherhood has abstained from making the same declarations regarding their views on the future of Egypt as they were doing in the beginning, there is little doubt to an impartial observer that they will attempt to take control of the Army and establish Sharia Law – Egypt doesn’t have the Turkish Kemalist tradition, not to mention even that tradition succumbed earlier this year for good in the face of an Islamic movement.
And the reality is that those girls abused by Muslim Egyptian soldiers, who are now kept in check by a secular military structure, are about to find out what real rape means should the Muslims come to power; and they may have to thank our Magda for that. I find it hard to agree with the idea that a person condemning her folly is taking freedom for granted when, in fact, it may just be that the person in question realizes what it means to lose it.

Plus, there are hundred of thousands of secularist Egyptians who decided not to leave their country under Mubarak, protested, were imprisoned, had relatives murdered, fought in Tahrir Square during the demonstrations (which this girl avoided to do) and basically dedicated their life to snatching their society back from the forces of oppression. All of these understood the importance of maintaining a morally neutral discourse until after the elections, despite the fact that they had been far more oppressed than a girl of twenty who was never abused herself and was sent to University by her parents. Freedom is an emotional issue for these Egyptians as well, it may very well turn into a matter of life and death after the 28^th, yet this girl just spat upon their future graves and is overwhelmed by waves of admiration from a Western world which through this may be putting the last nail in the coffin of a democratic Egypt.

[Fragony]

Who seriously believes in Egyptian democracy, power doesn't negotiate over there. Women's rights are much more important and she shook things up good, doesn't have to be convenient on the short term, the whole mentality towards women must change. I like blunt instruments and she is one, delicate as she may be.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Who seriously believes in Egyptian democracy, power doesn't negotiate over there. Women's rights are much more important and she shook things up good, doesn't have to be convenient on the short term, the whole mentality towards women must change. I like blunt instruments and she is one, delicate as she may be.

That's really easy for you to say Fragony, because you don't have to deal with the fallout.

I am inclined to agree with Nowake on this.

CR

[Fragony]

That's really easy for you to say Fragony, because you don't have to deal with the fallout.

I am inclined to agree with Nowake on this.

CR

Hard to disagree with Nowake because everything he says is true, it isn't very constructive no. But a somewhat democratic Egypt will still be sexist Egypt, it's worth causing a little trouble over that. The 'revolution' is an excellent moment for some trolling.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Definitely agree with Nowake...

[Montmorency]

Out of the blue, I was forced to read an Article written in 1963 by the late great MLK jr. today. In reading it, I saw many things that are pertinent to this discussion. In fact, I'd call it fortuitous, since the only thing that can possibly refute Nowake's stone-cold rendering of the situation is an emotional appeal by the master of emotional appeals. For the record, I've always been an advocate of violent civil disobedience, as opposed to the other kind, but that's just because I have less Moral Fiber than Dr. King!
Here are a few quotes that I think everyone should consider for a moment:




Hrrm? Replace Negro with Muslim Woman and White Power Structure with Fundamentalist Egyptian Government and you've pretty much got the situation summed up.




The only way my opinion differs from MLK is that I believe violent revolution is not only acceptable, but necesarry in most cases. And granted, that's a massive difference of opinion, but he flawlessly explains the thinking behind rebellion.



Is this not true of Women in Egypt as well?

In fact, that whole Essay is full of fantastic stuff you could use to support a civil rights movement in egypt, founded on timely action as opposed to just trusting the system. I am in no way trying to present MLKs ideas as my own, here... Me and 'ol Dr. King have some seriously fundamental differences of opinion. But if we, as civilized western people, accept MLK as one of our Heroes, then how can we not apply his ideals to a parallel situation?

I feel I have been pressed into a bit of a corner, what with the encyclopaedic depth that always comes with one of Nowake's posts. And I hope that quoting Dr. King won't be seen as a cheap tactic, but rather as a genuine effort to try and get you to think about this emotionally. Even the founding fathers believed that "The Tree of Liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of Patriots." or something like that. Cold, logical stoicism is a fantastic way to live an individual life, but an awful way to lead a society.

Awful in what sense? First of all, which goals do you want to see accomplished? Gender equality? Racial equality?

Well, the issue Nowake has raised is mostly one of, as far as I see it, timing. "Wait[ing]", here, would involve a few weeks. But I won't attempt to unravel your analogy in depth, so I'll just substitute my own.


What Nowake's post should make you imagine is a scenario where some provocative incident gets George Wallace or, somehow, Strom Thurmond, elected President.

[Fragony]

'But if we, as civilized western people, accept MLK as one of our Heroes, then how can we not apply his ideals to a parallel situation?'

Agreed although I'd pick Rosa Parks, that wasn't very constructive either, she was also a blunt tool. Blunt tools change things for the better or worse, elections, or any ritual dance won't change anything in Egypt. Whoever wins the election doesn't really matter, the real power is still the army, and as I said before power doesn't negotiate over there

[Fragony]

'Well, the issue Nowake has raised is mostly one of, as far as I see it, timing. "Wait[ing]", here, would involve a few weeks.'

Why let the whole world watching go to waste? Perfect timing.

[Ronin]

not curvy enough for my tastes...next.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

not curvy enough for my tastes...next.

The idea that we might have tastes in common makes me slightly queasy.

In any case, your analysis has been over taken by events, I don't think the elections will go ahead, and you missed one vital point in any case. The fact is, if this girl poses before elections she undermines the liberals, if she waits until afterwards she undermines the new "liberal" parliament and creates the impressions it is ushering a new era of "depravity".

The only conclusion to be reached is that there is no time in Egypt when she can "safely" take her clothes off. In any case, if you have to "wait" to do something it isn't actual freedom coming over the hill it's just a vaneer and even if it is real freedom making her "wait" to take her clothes off would forever undermine the mythos of the revolution, which would undermine Egyptian democracy for the future.

[Ironside]

The idea that we might have tastes in common makes me slightly queasy.

In any case, your analysis has been over taken by events, I don't think the elections will go ahead, and you missed one vital point in any case. The fact is, if this girl poses before elections she undermines the liberals, if she waits until afterwards she undermines the new "liberal" parliament and creates the impressions it is ushering a new era of "depravity".

The only conclusion to be reached is that there is no time in Egypt when she can "safely" take her clothes off. In any case, if you have to "wait" to do something it isn't actual freedom coming over the hill it's just a vaneer and even if it is real freedom making her "wait" to take her clothes off would forever undermine the mythos of the revolution, which would undermine Egyptian democracy for the future.

There's the minor difference between "immidiate political backlash" and "potential to move the position forward until the next election".

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There's the minor difference between "immidiate political backlash" and "potential to move the position forward until the next election".

It's the difference between genetic variation within the species and actual evolution, attitudes among the Egyptian majority need to change before the situation for women can genuinely improve.

[Fragony]

There's the minor difference between "immidiate political backlash" and "potential to move the position forward until the next election".

If she does it now and gets killed it has an impact, if she does it after the elections and she gets killed she's an anonymous victim. Things aren't looking very good for the elections anyway at the moment.

[Fisherking]

She has a lot of guts, I will give her that.

I take it as an effort to focus on a secular type government.

Any follow-up on the backlash?

[Cute Wolf]

She has a lot of guts, I will give her that.

I take it as an effort to focus on a secular type government.

Any follow-up on the backlash?

http://bikyamasr.com/48732/legal-act...nude-activist/

threatened with lashes or prison time...

but I doubt they'll doing more than threatening only, I'm sure Egyptian clerics wouldn't want their country to be invaded by angry young man all over the world who see the nude picture (and demands more )

[Fragony]

http://bikyamasr.com/48732/legal-act...nude-activist/

threatened with lashes or prison time...

but I doubt they'll doing more than threatening only, I'm sure Egyptian clerics wouldn't want their country to be invaded by angry young man all over the world who see the nude picture (and demands more )

You know what they say, you just got to respect that. Says gutmensch. NEVER get between progressive western people and religion, they will go for your eyes.

They don't actually do lashes in Egypt though, she will probably get killed though

[Ironside]

If she does it now and gets killed it has an impact, if she does it after the elections and she gets killed she's an anonymous victim. Things aren't looking very good for the elections anyway at the moment.

Point. I was more thinking less on lethal martyrhood and more on good times to create a big controversal though. For that, you want to have some time to move your position forward.

Ridiculous. Eighty lashes and possibly death just for showing herself nude? In no rational mind can that be considered okay.

But she has corrupted the minds of many men, so they can't properly think and work, now that they've seen her nude. I'm not sure if it's more insulting to the girl or the men, even if the girl gets the burden of it.

[Husar]

But she has corrupted the minds of many men, so they can't properly think and work, now that they've seen her nude. I'm not sure if it's more insulting to the girl or the men, even if the girl gets the burden of it.

Yes, it's her own fault that she gets a completely irrational punishment because it was her who took rationality away from these men after all.