Tips dealing with pike phalanxes?

[Nightmare]

Boy, those phalanxes are tough - even the levy ones. I'd like some tips on dealing with them. It isn't that I'm losing or anything - I dominate any game I play. But I certainly find either going against them, or using them myself, difficult.

An example of going against them, I'm currently playing a Koinon Hellenon campaign. Since it's very early in the campaign with Macedonia all over me like white on rice, I figured the only way to survive was to group all my generals into a single stack and abuse the crap out of them, since they are good units (I'm guessing?), and also regenerate. At any rate, I find that a pike phalanx isolated and completely surrounded by Spartan hoplites will not only continue to fight, it will continue to last a long time, and even take down the numbers of Spartans. I have to severely micromange this combat also, i.e. run the Spartans away who are getting hit by pikes, then when the phalanx turns around to get the ones in the back, charge his back with the ones I just pulled away, and do that over and over again for like forever (this while Spartans are hitting from the sides too). Spartan hoplites are good units... right?

So am I doing this right? Should I be using their secondary weapons (if they have any)? Any tips?

As an example of trying to use pikes myself, in a different campaign (Carthage, Pontos, whoever) I will have a battle line of pikemen standing there, and I find that the enemy simply will not engage them (except with pikemen of their own). They simply go around the pikemen and attack my other units. Even if my other units are elephants, they will attack those other units instead of the pikemen. They just leave pikemen to stand there, and the pikemen never get used. And it isn't as if pikemen can force an engagement by running down enemy units.

How do you force the enemy to engage pikes?

Thanks.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The Battle AI is generally programmed to avoid phalanx capable units unless they have their own phalanx units. So if you are facing euro-barbs, best bet is to take a long phalanx line and a bunch of missiles with strong flank protection. They will advance and scatter towards your flanks while you pick them off with missiles.

Fighting phalanxes is easy as well. Hoplites are pretty bad at it because they are meant as defensive units rather than offensive ones. But even poor AP or high lethality units like Anatolian Hillmen and the like can eat into the side of a levy phalanx with minimal casualties. Of course hammer and anvil with cavalry works best though.

[Nightmare]

The Battle AI is generally programmed to avoid phalanx capable units unless they have their own phalanx units.

Yup, found that out the hard way. Glad it's not just me.

So if you are facing euro-barbs, best bet is to take a long phalanx line and a bunch of missiles with strong flank protection. They will advance and scatter towards your flanks while you pick them off with missiles.

Actually, fighting Romans. I've never been able to pick off Roman soldiers with missles. What I have done quite a bit is have a bunch of elephants on the flank (not because I thought this was the best thing out there to put on the flanks, I just happened to have built a bunch of elephants earlier on in this Ccampaign, so I have to use them), and when they advance on that flank, charge them with the elephants. But they will never engage the pikes, and the pikes have had 0 kills throughout my taking all of the boot of Italy. It's like I never even built these expensive pikes, LOL. I guess instead of the elephants guarding the flank of the pikes, the pikes are guarding the flank of the elephants, because the AI simply will not attack the pikes. In fact, I wonder if that's a good use for pikes - guarding flanks. Of course, perhaps not in the real world, but in the game world?

Fighting phalanxes is easy as well. Hoplites are pretty bad at it because they are meant as defensive units rather than offensive ones. But even poor AP or high lethality units like Anatolian Hillmen and the like can eat into the side of a levy phalanx with minimal casualties. Of course hammer and anvil with cavalry works best though.

Thanks for the advice. I guess the problem is, with the Koinon Hellenon campaign I pretty much only have access to hoplites, at least at this juncture (that may change later on). And no cavalry nor pikes to do a "hammer and anvil."

You are certainly right though - either hoplites suck at attacking pikes (even the Spartan ones), or the things are nearly impervious.

[The_Blacksmith]

Horse-Archers, nuff said :P

in general when having pikes its just forward forward forward! and catch them before they split formation and then use cavalry simplesimplesimple

if you have hoplites, use 1 hoplite as an "anvil" put it in guard formation and they will take very few casualties and use slingers from behind to drop morale and numbers, optional: use hippakontistai for the same task as the slingers and ofcourse cutting down routers

[athanaric]

Spartans are pretty decent for pinning units, because they have great stamina and staying power. They won't beat a Makedonian-style phalanx from the front, but they'll hold out for a while. Also, Peltasts. Use them for shooting phalanxes from behind whenever possible (phalanxes are priority target #2 for Peltasts, Number one being Elephants). They'll probably cause less casualties by friendly fire than slingers, and be more effective than archers. You can also use Akontistai for this, especially seeing as they can lob even more javelins, but they may rout upon (accidental) melee "contact" with enemy units, so you'd have to be extra careful with them. Peltasts are also good flankers unless you've got something better.
If you like using mercenaries, Botroas are excellent flankers against light and medium phalanxes. Or if you have too much money, Tindanotae. Also Galathraikes and really just about any kind of Thrakians, should you get your hands on them. Thraikian Peltasts carry missiles and AP swords and are useful for attacking elite phalanxes from behind.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I found phalanxes to be too tough in EB - so I went into the EDU file and reduced the shield value of all phalanx units by 2 points (usually taking the value down from 5 to 3). This made them easier to kill, and no longer completely invulnerable to missiles from the front.

This seems more accurate to me since phalangites have a much smaller shield than hoplites, so shouldn't get as much benefit from it.

[panten]

I believe Phalanx-dominated armies are more a pain in the butt to fight than other armies, and somehow the engine seems to interpret phalanx units always to my disadvantage. Having them myself they get molested and cavalry just walks right through them. If I don't have them myself, they molest my troops and my cavalry dies in droves if they stay for more than the charge in the back.

In my Roman campaign it's the first time I had to fight strategically and tactically to gain an advance and counter the phalanx-full stacks the Seleucids throw at me. It's too early for you to have access to horse arches but taking Kallatis has been the best move I have made for my campaigning in the east as it gave me access to angry Scythians with bows and horses. Together with some Leuce Epos I use them to basically "seek and destroy", to hunt small units of phalanxes down before they join other troops and kill generals whenever they are dumb enough to wander around with only two or three units. I also use them to randomly lay siege to cities to engage relieve-forces or to sack them and cripple their war economy.

In battle, relying mostly on a somewhat "historical" army composition, it's actually challenging to engage a whole army of pikes without risking too many casualties, especially when my own troops are green as Irish plains and they have atleast several silver chevron untis. In sieges I try to single out units, pepper them with spears from behind, encircle them, charge them, make them rout and chop them to pieces before the next units arrives. In open battle it's harder, especially when he's brought some other decent troops. I usually sacrifice my Hastati to pin them down and take a beating while my other units hopefully can make a turn around and engage them from the flanks or allow my cavalry to maneuver into their rear and finish them off there.

I also use defensive chokepoints when I march my armies around to avoid landing in the middle of a forest where I can't see anything, or to defend at the bottom of a hill. Recently I had to engage a veteran pike army near a bridge. I hired a merceneary phalanx as sacrificial lamb and to pin them down long enough to allow my skirmishers and Cretan archers to cross the river and launch missile mayhem in the back of the army. Protected by some Pedites and my cavalry they made some decent killing but I still had to engage them hand to hand. Medium Phalanxes with loads of chevrons are not going to break without horses trampling them into the ground - bridges being bridges that was hard to do - so I still had a lot of hand-to-hand combat where I was actually driven back, positive thing being that I finally could charge in and finish them off.

It is an interesting learning curve though - never having played as Roman so far into the campaign before it is interesting to test out units and tactis that use mostly Roman units and work against the Phalanxes of the Arche.