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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Freedom! Och Aye the noo.....

    Bonny Scotland is struggling to escape from the tyrannical English yoke. Yet those dastardly perfidious Sassenachs keep moving the goalposts. Here is an article from the torygraph about how those mendacious Anglo-Saxons will do anything to subvert liberty for the downtrodden Bravehearts.

    Danny Alexander and George Osborne have raised what is perhaps the key issue from an economic perspective facing Scottish independence – what on earth would Scotland do about its currency?

    Initially, Alex Salmond had favoured the euro for an independent Scotland, but unsurprisingly, support for this idea has plummeted as a result of the finacial crisis. Not many Scots would now welcome the euro, so Mr Salmond has been forced to shift his position and now advocates continued currency union with the rest of Britain, at least initially.

    Yet if there is one thing that the single crisis has demonstrated beyond debate it is that you cannot have crisis free monetary union without matching fiscal union. Mr Salmond appears to have no convincing answer to this farely obvious flaw in his strategy. Nor has he even remotely begun to articulate how monetary union between two states operating independent fiscal policies would work. To have one country pursuing fiscal austerity while the other engages in the sort of fiscal expansionism favoured by the SNP would plainly be completely unsustainable.

    Does Mr Salmond envisage putting his own representative on the Monetary Policy Committee to represent the Scottish voice in the policy debate (a similar arrangement, in other words, to that which exists with the European Central Bank, where all seventeen members of the euro are represented), or will he simply abide by decisions determined solely for the benefit of England, Wales and Northern Ireland? There are examples of countries that accept these latter arrangements – Panama uses the US dollar even though it has no influence on policy, and similarly, Kosovo uses the euro – but few of them are happy situations, and there tend to be quite idiosyncratic reasons behind them.

    Monetary union between two fiscally sovereign states would eventually produce much the same problems as we've seen in the eurozone – a possibly quite severe divergence in competitiveness accompanied by a balance of payments and intra-union debt crisis. Indeed, it might well be that English regulators (for indeed they would be after separation) would be forced to impose controls on Scottish lending by UK banks to prevent just such a crisis developing, quite a challenge given that the two largest UK banks are Scottish domiciled.

    In any case, it is pretty obvious that the SNP hasn't properly thought through these issues. In practice, an independent Scotland would have no option but to move rapidly towards adoption of the euro – a case of out of the frying pan into the fire if ever there was one – or it would have to start issuing its own currency, and very probably the latter given the strict rules that now exist on convergence before EU member states can join the euro. An independent Scottish currency is quite unlikely to command support among investors, making deficit funding problematic.

    It is somewhat ironic that in "escaping" Britain, so as to be able to pursue fiscal policies free of Westminster control, Scotland would only be subjecting itself to ones determined in Berlin and Frankfurt instead. Monetary union implies ever closer fiscal union; there is no other way it can be made to work in the long term.
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...y-problematic/

    Now given that I'm usually against any stitch up consensus between 'The Boy', Cleggover and the 'Thrush', strangely I find myself in agreement. I don't want my country dismantled. If it is, it's down to the axis of evil Blair and Brown who started this bloody mess in the first place. Besides which, who will the Scots blame when and if they do become independent?
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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  2. #2
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom! Och Aye the noo.....

    If the Scots want to go, then that is their call. Good bye and good luck. I'd not fight to keep that dreary dump tied in with England. The threat of a Catholic invasion has decreased.

    I do not understand why the English don't get a referrendum to boot Scotland out of the UK. It's as if we all have to sit there meekly, hoping that they will deign to stay with us.

    As it stands, they have their politicians in Westminster and in their own parliment. When there was only one this was OK, but now this isn't right.

    If they go it alone and thrive, then good on them. If they go it alone and fail at least they can only blame themselves.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom! Och Aye the noo.....

    I'm curious as to what do they stand to gain from seceding... Pride? Perhaps, but pride is not a very hot commodity.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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    Default Re: Freedom! Och Aye the noo.....

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    I'm curious as to what do they stand to gain from seceding... Pride? Perhaps, but pride is not a very hot commodity.
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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom! Och Aye the noo.....

    hmm Mr Osbourne obviously doesnt know his history he has forgotten there is precendent for breaking links with Sterling.

    Seeing as that happend in the 1920s the financial system is probably far better equiped to adapt to a new currency in Scotland.

    First you maintain one for one status and then later you float the currency freely and voila you have a new currency in Alba.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Beyond that basic point - the article is built on a fallacy because the Scottish Pound is seperate from the English one, all that has to happen is for the bank of England to stop redeeming the notes and the currency union ends.

    Indeed Irish people are often caught out on holidays in the UK as sometimes the banks here give out sterling notes printed by the Northern Bank which many places in the UK wont accept.

    Technically Actually both Scots and Northern notes are separate currencies with a one for one status.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 01-13-2012 at 15:27.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom! Och Aye the noo.....

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    hmm Mr Osbourne obviously doesnt know his history he has forgotten there is precendent for breaking links with Sterling.

    Seeing as that happend in the 1920s the financial system is probably far better equiped to adapt to a new currency in Scotland.

    First you maintain one for one status and then later you float the currency freely and voila you have a new currency in Alba.




    Indeed Irish people are often caught out on holidays in the UK as sometimes the banks here give out sterling notes printed by the Northern Bank which many places in the UK wont accept.

    Technically Actually both Scots and Northern notes are separate currencies with a one for one status.
    Really? The shops are supposed to take them.

    Anyway, look - Racist: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...ctics-scotland

    Salmond must have missed the part where most Scottish Westminster MP's are anti-Independence.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom! Och Aye the noo.....

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    If the Scots want to go, then that is their call. Good bye and good luck. I'd not fight to keep that dreary dump tied in with England. The threat of a Catholic invasion has decreased.

    I do not understand why the English don't get a referrendum to boot Scotland out of the UK. It's as if we all have to sit there meekly, hoping that they will deign to stay with us.

    As it stands, they have their politicians in Westminster and in their own parliment. When there was only one this was OK, but now this isn't right.

    If they go it alone and thrive, then good on them. If they go it alone and fail at least they can only blame themselves.

    We could have a referendum on US leaving the Union, we couldn't very well have one on kicking the Scots out.

    Anyway, most Scots are neither stupid nor racist bigots like Salmond - they don't want independance, simply less interference from London, and don't we all want that?

    Beyond that basic point - the article is built on a fallacy because the Scottish Pound is seperate from the English one, all that has to happen is for the bank of England to stop redeeming the notes and the currency union ends.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom! Och Aye the noo.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    We could have a referendum on US leaving the Union, we couldn't very well have one on kicking the Scots out.

    Anyway, most Scots are neither stupid nor racist bigots like Salmond - they don't want independance, simply less interference from London, and don't we all want that?

    Beyond that basic point - the article is built on a fallacy because the Scottish Pound is seperate from the English one, all that has to happen is for the bank of England to stop redeeming the notes and the currency union ends.
    Yes, I agree that my phrasing was deliberately poor - we could opt to leave.

    I agree that all areas would like less interference from Westminster. BUT with the Scots, they along with the Welsh (wno are both overly represented in Westminster) can vote for one thing... and then their local parliments can choose to do something completely different - they vote on laws that England has to abide by, whereas they on many issues can do differently.

    I think that there should be a referrendum - and a simple yes or no. The half way house (devolution max) again appears to be trying to cherry pick all the bits that are good, and avoid all the bits that aren't.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  9. #9
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom! Och Aye the noo.....

    The whole thing is a disagrace, I will refuse to vote in a referendum or take part in this discussion as it is currently being framed.

    The whole framework of the discussion is obviously orientated towards the position of the Scottish nationalists. For Mr. Cameron and all the opposition parties at Holyrood to talk about the "collective sovereignty" of the "Scottish people" in itself gives legitimacy to the idea of Scottish nationhood.

    I don't even like the term 'unionist' since it suggests that Britain in not a nation in itself, but just a collection of nations. As a British nationalist I don't feel such a term is appropriate so I prefer to call myself a 'loyalist'.

    For a long time now mainstream unionists have identified as both Scottish and British and supported devolution. Such a position has created a cycle of destroying the British identity and British institutions, to the point that we have spiralled into the current situation - something that would have been unthinkable even 15 years ago.

    My position here as a loyalist is a fringe one, unacceptable in mainstream debate, and unrepresented by the major parties. Although I do wonder how the working-class loyalist enclaves dotted around Scotland's central belt will react in the event of independence. The Orange Order has in the past said some pretty extreme things on the matter. Although it backed down over those statements, its more conciliatory approach of late has meant it has lost a lot of ground to similar groups that have a much more militant stance. And I say this as someone that lives in the little town that hosts what has been dubbed Scotland's Garvahy Road.
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