Faction #1 The Roman Republic

[ahowl11]

The Roman Republic

Cities:
Rome
Arretium
Capua

Rome
At this time, Rome was a powerful state in Italy. It had been founded in 753 BC when many villages had combined into one large town, which was established on seven hills. They were convicts, low life's, shepherds, farmers, and fisherman. In it's earliest days, it was ruled by Kings, the most noteworthy of them being Etruscans. In 509 BC the last Etruscan King was expelled and a Republic was founded. The republic had expanded against the Sabines, Aequi, and Volsci in it's early years, but in the early fourth century, the city of Rome was sacked by Celts. It took awhile for the city to recover, and they were constantly at war with various Italian Peoples. They had succeeded in defeating the Latins, Marsi, Samnites, and Etruscans as they expanded north, east, and south. After the Third Samnite War ended in 290 BC, and the defeat of the Celtic tribes, Umbrians and Etruscans in the 280's BC, Rome was at it's greatest extent from Eturia all the way into Samnium.

The city of course, is the capital of the Romans. It should be the largest city in size and population.

Arretium
Originally founded by the city of Clusium, Arretium was a major city of the Etruscans. It is thought that Arretium was one of the twelve most important Etruscan cities. After it became independent, Arretium established a niche for bronze working, trading with the Romans and Celts. Due to civil strife and unrest, Arretium went over peacefully to Rome around 311 BC.

Arretium should be a large town with many economic benefits.

Capua
Capua was a city in Campania. It was founded by Greeks, but developed an Greco-Etruscan culture due to the Greek sphere of influence. It supported the Latins in their agianst Rome in 338 BC and after the wars cam under the control of the Romans. Capua was known for it's metalworking abilities and was known as the second largest city in Italy


Army

During the time frame of our mod there were two significant reforms. The Polybian and Marian. In 280 BC, Rome deployed the Camillan Army which consisted of these units:

The Camillan Army

Leves

Leves were of a poorer and younger class of Roman citizens. They were skirmishers who would harass the enemy lines until they were out of ammunition or were driven off. They were armed only with the clothes on their backs, some javelins and a spear to engage in melee.

*Europa Barbarorum has them using a shield, and also says they wore helmets, which I believe is not true since they were very poor.

How Leves should be made:
Peasant model and texture, give him javelins and a spear, instead of a dagger. Leves, will be slightly weaker than most Peltasts and Skirmishers.

Hastati

Hastati were the first battle line in the Camillan and Polybian armies. Hastati derived their name from the word Hastae, which means short spear. They would be the first to engage in melee, and would then retire to let the Principes fight.

Hastati were armed with a six foot long spear, the scutum shield, a helmet which had three feathers attached to it, a greave on their shield side leg and a breastplate for protection.

*A few sources claim that Hastati carried pilae and short swords into battle during the Camillan Era. This is not true as both of those weapons and fighting styles were adapted from the Iberian troops between the first and second Punic Wars.

How Hastati should be made:
Hastati model and texture. Get rid of plume on helmet and replace with feathers, get rid of pila and short swords and replace with spears. Put a greave on their shield side leg.
They will still be a very dependable unit for the Camillan Roman Army

Principes

Principes were of a wealthier class of citizens. They also had more experience and were older than the Hastati. The Principes would form the second battle line and relieve the Hastati, when the Hastati withdrew. The Principes will be armed and armored very similarly to the Hastati except the have chain mail instead of a breast plate.

How Principes should be made:
Principes model and texture. Get rid of plume on helmet and replace with feathers, get rid of pila and short swords and replace with spears. Put a greave on their shield side leg.
The Principes will make up the main force of a Camillan Army.

Triarii

The Triarii are the wealthiest and most experienced soldiers in the Camillan Army. They fought in the hoplite fashion and were the backbone of the Camillan Army. They wore a breastplate that covered the entire torso, an Etrusco-Corinthian Helmet and a greave on their shield side leg. They also carried a spear, a short sword and a large round shield similar to what hoplites used.

*Another source said that their helemts were similar to Hastati and Principes but i felt the Etrusco-Corinthian Helmet would look better.

How Triarii should be made:
Triarii model, new head containing Etrusco-Corinthian helmet, shield and breastplate of Armored Hoplites, a sword to fight with when out of the Phalanx formation, and a greave on the shield side leg.
The Triarii will be the elite unit of Roman armies

Rorarii

Rorarii served as reserves in the Camillan Army. They were useful for support when a flank began to waver and were mainly used as reserves. The Rorarii carried a scutum, hasta spear, wore no armor except for a helmet.

How Rorarii will be made:
Town Watch Unit without Cape

Accensi

Accensi were the poorest and weakest of all citizen soldiers within the Camillan army. They were in the back of the line together with the Rorarii. They wore the colthes on their backs and carried slings.

How Accensi will be made:
Roman Slinger model and texture
No shield
Will be weaker than other slinger units

Equites

Equites were the cavalry of the Camillan Army. They were medium cavalry who maintained the fanks. Equites were the wealthiest citizen soldiers of the army, hence why they get to ride on horseback. They wore a bronze cuirass, and a crested helmet with a plume. Also they carry a lance, round shield and a short sword.

How Equites will be made:
Equites Model and texture, new head with crested helmet, cuirass, cape
Will be much more stronger than vanilla equites

Polybian Army

After some difficulties with the previous army, the Romans decided to adapt to a more flexible army. These changes happened sometime in between the first and second punic wars.

Changes
Instead of Rorarii, Accensi, and Leves, only one unit, Velites.
Hastati and Principes have Pilae and Gladius
Triarii lose phalanx formation and are more heavy spearmen than hoplites
Equites are more flexible
Funditores

Velites

Velites were essentially the Leves, Rorarii, and Accensi combined. The Velites would play the role of the Leves by rushing out to throw javelins at the enemy and then rushing back behind the lines for safety. They will also carry a dagger and a round shield for protection.

How Velites will be made:
Same as vanilla except they need a bigger shield.
Will be equivalent to Peltasts.

Hastati/Principes

Will look the same but have two Pilae to throw and use the gladius as their melee weapon, and have more chain mail armor.

Triarii
Will look very similar to the Triarii in vanilla, keeps the Etrusco-Corinthian Helmet, but substitutes chain mail armor for the breastplate, and has a scutum instead of a hoplite shield. Also will fight as more flexible spearmen than in a phalanx

Equites
Will have chain mail instead of breast plate

Funditores

Funditores were Slingers used by the Romans, they were not used extensively but they were used and were effective.

How Funditores will be made:
Accensi unit but with shield

[Ave_Oz]

Roman Republic

I propose the use of vanilla's senate faction symbol. I'm mostly against the red one of DTW since back then wearing purple didn't meant you were gay and in fact it was a color meaning a high social status and off course, wealthiness. The use of red color for a roman faction is consequence of hollywood movies (much like Coke's fault we hear "Santa Claus" and think of a big & old fat man wearing red).

that's all i have to say since history & research it's not my field of expertise.

[Hamata]

I say we have named and numbured legions for rome here is a list of roman legions


Legio I Germanica (or Augusta)
Legio I Adiutrix
Legio I Italica
Legio I Macriana Liberatrix
Legio I Minervia
Legio I Parthica could be used for apropatine campaign

Founded in 197 AD by Septimius Severus for his campaign against the Parthians

http://www.unrv.com/military/legions.php list for more and source

[ahowl11]

@Ozman

I actually like the red color for Rome because to me it just resembles who they are.

[TwoKnives]

Roman territory in 281-280 BC.

http://jskonrad.com/images/west_med_...d-6%20copy.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/216/4...8809973e7a.jpg.

[TwoKnives]

I would like to point out a thing for the pre-marian roman army. The vanilla representation was correct, but the roman army was like that by the Second Punic war. Before that there were no velites, their place was held by three different types of units, the rorarii, the accensi and the leves. The leves had the same function as the velites. The rorarii were inexperienced fighters that assisted the triarii. The accensi were experienced, but unreliable fighters that also supported the triarii. My point is that, since the velites were introduced during the Second Punic war after Scipio's reforms (and the mod starts in 280 BC), to have them in the game accurately we should simulate these reforms. However Marian reforms were much more important than those of Scipio, and we can't have two reforms in 1 faction.

Now we are left with two options:

a) Remove the Velites, thing which might lower the quality of the game-play.
b) Add them, but lowering the historical accuracy.

If somebody has an idea, please speak up. If nobody does, I'd go for option a, simply because it MIGHT lower the quality of the game-play, and only for the fans that love this unit, while option b WILL lower the historical accuracy and has anybody ever thought what people might say about it after the mod is released? Ok, i know, it's only 1 unit, but some people love to rant and criticize. So what do we do?

[Ludens]

I propose the use of vanilla's senate faction symbol. I'm mostly against the red one of DTW since back then wearing purple didn't meant you were gay and in fact it was a color meaning a high social status and off course, wealthiness.

This is very true, but purple wasn't associated with the Romans either. IIRC only important senators were allowed to have a purple border or strip on their toga. Purple dye was outrageously expensive. If the colour was associated with anyone, it would have been the Carthaginians and other Phoenician cities. They were either the dominant or only producer of purple dye. In fact the word Phoenician (and Punic) may be derived from the Greek word for purple.

[TwoKnives]

This is very true, but purple wasn't associated with the Romans either. IIRC only important senators were allowed to have a purple border or strip on their toga. Purple dye was outrageously expensive. If the colour was associated with anyone, it would have been the Carthaginians and other Phoenician cities. They were either the dominant or only producer of purple dye. In fact the word Phoenician (and Punic) may be derived from the Greek word for purple.

Yes Phoenicians got the purple dye for some kind of sea snails or some other mollusks. So red it is for the Romans, It suits them more for some reason.

[Skull]

So red it is for the Romans, It suits them more for some reason.

I read that Red is the color of Mars,so red suits them VERY well...

[hameleona]

over 75% of the war-gods have Red as their color ;)

[ahowl11]

why couldnt we have two reforms? the first one wouldnt be that major

[Skull]

why couldnt we have two reforms? the first one wouldnt be that major

I think it ain't possible...

@hameleona - I didn't know!:)

[TwoKnives]

I think it ain't possible...

Whatever he said. Two reforms aren't possible as far as I know so, it leaves us with the two options I pointed out.

[Asgaroth]

Do we have senate symbol in rer color,or can I make it red?

[ahowl11]

We have it in Red color. How about we make Velites available, but just put them in a higher tier for the buildings? That way when you get to the higher tier as the Romans, more than likely you will be fighting Carthage

[TwoKnives]

I thought about, that, but if they would be high tier, they should be really strong. Otherwise nobody would recruit them. Besides having them as a high tier unit would not make the leves, rorarii and accensi disappear. It wouldn't really matter if they wouldn't be added at all, basically they are leves with more numbers and different name.

[ahowl11]

I don't understand how there is not another reform available.. I never heard that you couldn't have more than 1

[Ave_Oz]

It is "sort of" possible, remember that EB uses 1-2 or even 3 (if i remember right) for some factions, but they are not the vanilla reforms; it is some sort of script that acts like a reform. My suggestion is NOT doing that, if we want to keep the vanilla feeling we should avoid unnecesary scripts that will slow down the perfomance of the game (enough we have using the RSII textures and environments). And abput the color well, i didn't meant exactly vanilla's senate color, that's grape-purple (sort of), the color i meant was "tyrian purple" wich resembles a lot a red (darker than vanilla); but i'm ok using red as the faction color :)

[TwoKnives]

It is "sort of" possible, remember that EB uses 1-2 or even 3 (if i remember right) for some factions, but they are not the vanilla reforms; it is some sort of script that acts like a reform. My suggestion is NOT doing that, if we want to keep the vanilla feeling we should avoid unnecesary scripts that will slow down the perfomance of the game (enough we have using the RSII textures and environments)

Precisely. So I say we don't add them at all and get moving with the work. We could add them, but lowering the historical accuracy. Also we could replace the purple in the SPQR banner with red. Also I need a final and decisive answer for the "velites issue" by you guys, especially ahowl11, so I can move on and do the darn unit roster.

[Skull]

I think we shoud keep them.

[hameleona]

You CAN'T have two reforms, but you can simulate another reform - just like EB did. But it's hard work for nothing really nice. Just leave the velites in a higher tire and there you go ;)

[Ave_Oz]

You CAN'T have two reforms, but you can simulate another reform - just like EB did. But it's hard work for nothing really nice. Just leave the velites in a higher tire and there you go ;)

Exactly

[Asgaroth]

ou CAN'T have two reforms, but you can simulate another reform - just like EB did. But it's hard work for nothing really nice. Just leave the velites in a higher tire and there you go ;)

I agree...We are losing time for nothing that way.We choose which is the most important reform of the faction and leave it-in this case that is the Marian reforms are way important the other.


So the symbol we already have done.The culture will be obviously roman...


And here you are a little funny page for the resources,better to say trade roots of that time.

http://resourcesforhistory.com/map.htm

To see the trade roots click on the little ship beneath.

[Asgaroth]

I think that here are ALL THE CITIES you can get FOR OUR MAP :

It states how much citizens the cities had at that time(for some cities) as well as who were they owned by and what was the city famous for.For some cities there are even the resources and for each city there is aregion it belonged to.

So these will shorten off our time for searching te cities.The only thing you have to do is scroll down or up.

http://books.google.hr/books?id=v9YB...20city&f=false

[Ave_Oz]

I think that here are ALL THE CITIES you can get FOR OUR MAP :

It states how much citizens the cities had at that time(for some cities) as well as who were they owned by and what was the city famous for.For some cities there are even the resources and for each city there is aregion it belonged to.

So these will shorten off our time for searching te cities.The only thing you have to do is scroll down or up.

http://books.google.hr/books?id=v9YB...20city&f=false

You gotta be kidding me, you're the researcher man, you're supposed to do the scroll over and then give me the results of research, not just look out for info for me (in that case i'll use my sources wich i think are not much in the same interest as yours)

[ahowl11]

UPDATED OP

There is my first work for the Romans. We still have a lot to do. I would like to see some quality stuff from you guys, this is where it all starts for us. Research is vital!

Here is what I will do in my next Roman Research Post:
Marian Army
Socii/Allied Units
Auxillia Units
Recruitment systems

I guess while I'm working on that we can assign the Romans the cities on our map, and start making the units. I can ask around to see how I can script in the Polybian reform.
By the way when creating the units, do not worry about UI's, just worry about the models and such. We have a UI maker now in Lanjane. He made units for THS and created UI's for the Persian Invasion mod.

References
Rome And Her Enemies; An Empire Created and Destroyed By War -Osprey Publishers
A Guide To the Ancient World -Michael Grant
The Cultural Atlas of The Roman World
www.wikipedia.org
www.europabarbarorum.com
www.twc.net
roman-empire.net

I know those are not great resources, but for having limited time and not many resources or money, I made due. Wikipedia is not bad at all, especially if the article provides references. Also yes I believe EB is a great source for learning about history. I also look at the other mods and see their views on certain factions and units, combine them and then come up with my overall opinion. I learned a lot in five hours of research. Now I will focus on other things with the mod and continue my research with the Romans when I can. I want to see you guys actually researching, give me your thoughts on what you have found and let's put our heads together.

[hameleona]

EB is a good source, not a great one.
Love the banners.

Asgaroth, when do we start?

PS: ahowl, i can tell you that the reforms script is just to heavy. It's a grave process, honestly, so why don't you think about leaving it vanilla.

[Asgaroth]

You gotta be kidding me

No.I study medicine and if I have time I research heavyly for something...Now at my University I have Chemistry and Physics which aren't easy,so I don't have much time to research...

That thing that I posted was for TWOKNIVES AND AHOWL11,so they can decide which cities need more research and which cities would fitt in the game.

I know those are not great resources, but for having limited time and not many resources or money, I made due. Wikipedia is not bad at all, especially if the article provides references.

The sources are great...And I agree about wikipedia.You can find many mistakes on her,but still she is not that bad at all,as people spitt on her.

Good work ahowl.For editing the first post.it looks great and we look much serious as a team now and in this way that we are working it is much easyer to work.

Love the banners.

The banners and the symbols are awesome...

AHOWL11-I can make other faction symbols if you want,but when e get to them ?...They would be vanilla of course,not like the ones me and the Spartan warlord have made.

Asgaroth, when do we start?

Haven't you given up from us ?

Polybian Army

No archers for the romans ?

[hameleona]

Nah, i can allways make a few units for you, people. ;)

Just don't expect 3+ units per day as when we started. ;)

[TwoKnives]

@ahowl11

We can implement the Polybian army through a reform, but it will slow the game down. The banners are good though, I like them very much.

@Asgaroth

Rome's cities in the beginning of the game:

Rome
Arretium
Capua
Ravenna
Beneventum

Also, Romans had no archers, except for the auxiliary or sometimes mercenary ones.