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Thread: Rules Discussion

  1. #1
    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Rules Discussion

    Greetings players of LotD.

    I wanted to open up a thread specifically dedicated to rules questions and revisions.

    Bear in mind that the most up to date rules will still be in the first page of the OOC thread.


    To start things off, I have been thinking about financial dynamics for the game and the limited money available to most players. I currently feel that the King has perhaps too much of a monopoly on money, and that any revolt would be suicidal because of this. The main reason for this is that the King gets 4000 free income every turn, and no one else gets any.

    My idea is to
    lower the King's purse to 2000 per turn
    give the Junior King a base income of 500 per turn
    give all other nobles a base income of 300 per turn

    This would represent the personal holdings and small estates owned by the nobles.
    This would make the distribution of money more even, and I think it will allow all players to have more active participation in game without constant fear of bankruptcy.
    It also fits into the Golden Bull because this prevented Nobles from having to pax taxes to the King, which would mean more money for Nobles and less for the King.
    It would also make it possible for a large revolt to find success against the King if they occur, rather than basically being hopeless because of the king's purse.

    Overall, the faction's income would be unchanged for now, and it would also help reflect the growing importance of the Nobility as they get more numerous. (The more nobles, the more their 300 per turn shifts power in their direction.)

    We certainly don't have to do this, but I wanted to check in and see what players thought of this.
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    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    I didn't realize the king's purse was being added to his income. At 4k that does seem unbalancing (sorry Myth). I'd be ok with the proposal above but maybe another option is just to remove it altogether? After all if the nobles aren't paying taxes then where is the king's purse coming from?
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    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey View Post
    I didn't realize the king's purse was being added to his income. At 4k that does seem unbalancing (sorry Myth). I'd be ok with the proposal above but maybe another option is just to remove it altogether? After all if the nobles aren't paying taxes then where is the king's purse coming from?
    That is another option, but my fear is that is would cripple the faction economically, especially compared to the huge income boosts the ai gets.

    My reasoning is that these purses come from various small personal holdings and estates (and businesses, etc...), distributed throughout the Kingdom, rather than from taxes.
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    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbringer View Post
    That is another option, but my fear is that is would cripple the faction economically, especially compared to the huge income boosts the ai gets.

    My reasoning is that these purses come from various small personal holdings and estates (and businesses, etc...), distributed throughout the Kingdom, rather than from taxes.
    Yeah you're right, we need the cash in some form.
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    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Anyone who objects should try to do so before the next turn. If there are no objections, I will put this into effect starting turn 3.
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  6. #6
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    I support the measure for you reasons you've outlined. It is the internal strife that makes these games memorable!

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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Sounds good to me.

  8. #8
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    I'm ok with this. FYI I am not viewing this game as a me vs. the rest or as "who gets to be the King". I want us as players and strategist and capable tacticians in battle mode to work together to make this otherwise quite underprivileged faction position work for us and at some point turn Hungary into a Great Power. We all know we can do it in SP, the beauty of this is team play and doing it this way, with the AI backed up by human intelligence. Hence my 4000 gp per turn doesn't mean I get to do what I want, it means we get more units to fight the other factions with. I command them sure, but If the King falls you all fall with him. If he wins, you all benefit from the security that victory provides.

    If the ultimate goal for this is civil war so that someone else gets to be King I'll just quit right now and leave you guys to it.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
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    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    I'm ok with this. FYI I am not viewing this game as a me vs. the rest or as "who gets to be the King". I want us as players and strategist and capable tacticians in battle mode to work together to make this otherwise quite underprivileged faction position work for us and at some point turn Hungary into a Great Power. We all know we can do it in SP, the beauty of this is team play and doing it this way, with the AI backed up by human intelligence. Hence my 4000 gp per turn doesn't mean I get to do what I want, it means we get more units to fight the other factions with. I command them sure, but If the King falls you all fall with him. If he wins, you all benefit from the security that victory provides.

    If the ultimate goal for this is civil war so that someone else gets to be King I'll just quit right now and leave you guys to it.
    The point is more that civilw ar is an option if you or a future king bully everyone too much, and to distribute the factions wealth more so that everyone gets to command armies, not just the king.
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    "Imagination is a quality given a man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is." ― Oscar Wilde
    “While money can't buy happiness, it certainly lets you choose your own form of misery.” ― Groucho Marx

  10. #10
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Aye that certainly has to exist. Not like in KotN where all the starting armies belonged to the Basileos and he acted like God's avatar on earth even though we had a proforma voting system established for our "democracy".

    The funny thing is that people went with this and scraped and grovelled before the leader of a democratic, Hellenistic society. Here, where we have a medieval King who is supposed to act like he is everyone's boss, people jump at the slightest chance of them being somehow unequal.

    I don't have much experience with other TW RPG games here, so I don't know which is the norm. I am fine with giving everyone income. Hell, allow them to build "estates" represented as forts, that will generate income. No more than two estates per province, needs approval if it is to be built in someone elses's province, each estate generates 500/turn but must be garrisoned naturally. If an enemy army takes the estate, the player loses 10% of his current gold + (20%-whatever the number of estates he holds). So the more estates you have, the less you lose from each one if it is taken.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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  11. #11
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Soirited in character discussion and a degree of autonomy has been the norm with rpgs here so far, ever since the orginal Will of the Senate (played as Rome in a RTW mod). Several times, notable in Last of the Romans-ERE and seemingly KOTN, very autocratic societies have had voting added in to give players more control. When we played the Holy Roman Empire in KOTR tension between the ruler and nobles was very much a theme (as both wanted more power and at different times each had the means to gain it), something that may or may not here.

    Regarding KotN, I think Ptolemaic rulers were sometimes deified so "god's avatar" would be insulting their divine majesty.

    NB's proposed rule change sounds fine to me, as long as the extra funds still scale up for the King and possibly Junior King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Aye that certainly has to exist. Not like in KotN where all the starting armies belonged to the Basileos and he acted like God's avatar on earth even though we had a proforma voting system established for our "democracy".

    The funny thing is that people went with this and scraped and grovelled before the leader of a democratic, Hellenistic society. Here, where we have a medieval King who is supposed to act like he is everyone's boss, people jump at the slightest chance of them being somehow unequal.

    I don't have much experience with other TW RPG games here, so I don't know which is the norm. I am fine with giving everyone income. Hell, allow them to build "estates" represented as forts, that will generate income. No more than two estates per province, needs approval if it is to be built in someone elses's province, each estate generates 500/turn but must be garrisoned naturally. If an enemy army takes the estate, the player loses 10% of his current gold + (20%-whatever the number of estates he holds). So the more estates you have, the less you lose from each one if it is taken.
    Last edited by Zim; 01-20-2012 at 17:12.
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    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zim View Post
    NB's proposed rule change sounds fine to me, as long as the extra funds still scale up for the King and possibly Junior King.
    Okay, they are going into effect this turn, but what do you mean by scale up? Just that they are larger, or do you think they should become progressively more so as time goes on?


    Also, since I have received some questions on a few things.

    Q. If someone needs my facilities to recruit something and I ok it, can they just be queued and then that person pays for it? Or do I have to spend my own money and then get paid when I transfer the troops?
    A. It can be queued and that person pays for it.

    Q. Is income available to be used on the current term, ie. if I start a turn with 1000, and have an income of 2000, can I spend 3000 this turn?
    A. Yes, income is available for spending on the current turn.


    Also, people should send me pm's of where their treasury is stored.

    7.8 Each player must declare where their money is kept, this may be either a province or with their character, this location may be changed at the end of any turn (unless it is within a besieged province)
    7.9 If the province where a character keeps their money belongs to another player, that player may seize the entire sum whenever desired
    7.10 If the province where a character keeps their money is captured by an enemy faction, 75% of the money is lots, while the other 25% is allocated to a new location by that character’s player
    7.11 If a character who is keeping their money with them is defeated in battle, 50% of their money is lost.
    Last edited by Nightbringer; 01-20-2012 at 17:28.
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  13. #13
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    I just meant that they make more money, as proposed in the op.

    Scaling up the King's funds as the empire got bigger might be interesting, but also a bit of a headache...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbringer View Post
    Okay, they are going into effect this turn, but what do you mean by scale up? Just that they are larger, or do you think they should become progressively more so as time goes on?
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    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Unfortunately I had planned my recruitment and disbanding with 4000 gp/turn in mind and am now going in the negatives. Do we get loot after defeating armies?
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Here is the save. I propose the 48 hour deadline exclude weekends and common holidays.

    I will need a bit more time to ponder at the map before I give you an IC reply guys. NB I'll upload the finances after I have dinner, it's 10:30 here and I just got back from the gym so, food first, spreadsheets later
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    Like totalwar.org on Facebook!

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    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Yes, you get the loot when you ransom people or sack a city.
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    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    So the purse rule is going into effect the following turn, but I also have a request of you guys. Can I rely on you all to be in charge of what all belongs to whom. I can track agents and provinces, but keeping track of all the armies is a lot of work.

    What this would mean is that in your beginning of turn status report from me I would no longer list what military units are under your control. If it is important to people that they continue to receive this, it would make things far easier on me if players could give an itemized list of their armies (recorded by captain or general name), and of the individual units they own inside other players settlements or armies.
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    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Is everyone okay with switching the turn limit to 72 hours?
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    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    I have another question for everyone.

    What do you guys think about getting new general units for the game?

    Should we just wait for them to crop up naturally?
    Are players allowed to recruit them? (if so, I would say that general is a vassal of theirs automatically)
    Should I use my super GM powers to ensure that one gets made as soon as possible whenever someone is on the waiting list?
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    “While money can't buy happiness, it certainly lets you choose your own form of misery.” ― Groucho Marx

  20. #20

    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    I think we should wait a few turns and if a new character hasn't cropped up, then you should use your godlike abilities to create one. We don't want people dying and immediately coming back to life, but we don't want people sitting out forever either.

    And it makes sense in game too; it would take a little time for titles to be sorted out after a lord died without heirs before a new lord would rise to the position.

  21. #21
    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    makes sense to me. Maybe about 5 turns?
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    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    I reckon while we're at the start and still gathering players we should capitalize on it by making generals freely available. That way we build a good core of guys and get everyone involved and hooked before they lose interest waiting and drift off. We can always restrict things later if we seem to be having a 'revolving door'
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    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Well, I can try to get some avatar's for Cecil and Quirl (if he wants to join) at the end of this turn. (so they will start next turn) That would still have a couple turns after mikan's death, and we can go with a 5 turn waiting period in the future.

    I'll pm Cecil and quirl and make sure they are ready to come in, and if so we will do the above.
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    Norse Uikikr Member Mithridate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbringer View Post
    Is everyone okay with switching the turn limit to 72 hours?
    I prefer the 48 hours, its too long if not. But as you said there seems to have been problems with meeting the deadline.

    Im against, but open

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    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Hey everyone. What would you all think of including a rule where you can use a spy to steal money from another faction or another character.

    The way the mechanics would work is that you would have your spy infiltrate a city, then let me know in your end of turn report that he is attempting to steal from that city. I would make a calculation based on the spy's subterfuge score and let you know.
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  26. #26
    Norse Uikikr Member Mithridate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    I support it, but i would also like to add some things

    The spy will be able to find out it the Lords treasury is wherever he is infiltrating, should be easy enough askng around in taverns or the right people. May raise suspicion but its never cause for death, in theory^^ He should also be able to get an idea of how rich the treasury is. (useful to know regardless)

    The amount of money stolen should be a percentage of the total treasury, with a minimum amount and perhaps maximum. lets say 750+20% out of total.
    Large treasury its too much to carry, small treasury and he grabs the box with jewels :)

    The infiltrate action should cost the agent his subterfuge action for the turn, imo he should be able to attempt to steal the same turn he infiltrates.

    I dont like the idea of stealing income from cities, only lords treasuries :)

  27. #27
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithridate View Post
    I dont like the idea of stealing income from cities, only lords treasuries :)
    What about stealing from other factions though? I like that idea
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    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Sorry, by city I meant the cities of other factions. For character's treasuries it would be from wherever that treasury is stored. As for learning if it is in the army/city of _____ character, I would say that makes sense, but that it would take the turn's action to do so.
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  29. #29
    Norse Uikikr Member Mithridate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    What about stealing from other factions though? I like that idea
    Yea it sounds nice, id love to get some models on success rate though but imagine that would be pretty hard with so many factors.Perhaps adding that when investigating location? ( the spy recons his chances to successfully steal to be x%, estimated loot would be around y )

    The more you know the better since getting a man in and out, can be quite hazardous!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    This is what ive been doing in one hotseat, my spies bring a lot of death when they infiltrate^^
    Last edited by Mithridate; 02-26-2012 at 12:05.

  30. #30
    Mmmm, Antares is tasty! Senior MemberModerator Alien Attack Champion Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rules Discussion

    Well, how about this. i'll tell you the base rate for success would be 10*subterfuge skill %. This would then have modifiers added based on the target. In general, the larger/more advanced the governmental building in a city is (so the larger the settlement), the harder it will get. For characters, it will depend on traits and army size.
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