The continuation of my Israel experience thread

[Hooahguy]

Ok so I know this is wierd, but my institution has Net Nanny on its computers, which I find is an inadequate and paranoid program. So I went to look at the latest post, which was Hax's, but I couldnt because it was blocked for gambling. What the ????
So if a mod could shut down the other thread because I wont be able to access it from now on. Yeah, I know, this place blows.

Though I did subscribe to the thread so I was able to read Hax's post:

Last night, I attended a lecture about the Gaza strip. I won't say too much about exactly what kind of people there were, but let me tell you, I felt a Zionist in comparison. Death glares when I dared mention Hamas' manifest that contains anti-Jewish slurs.

The speaker (dr. Sara Roy, from Harvard) had some interesting things to say though; with the embargos on exports and imports that have gradually been put in place since the 1990's up until the siege of 2006, along with the dismemberment of the Palestinian state, in essence severing the Gaza strip from the West Bank economically, have ground the Gazan economy to a near-halt; 30 to 35% of all people are unemployed, with unemployment amongst the youth hovering around 49%. The private sectors is nearly completely gone, only the public sector has grown, with about 14%.

Of course, the problem is that once people have nothing to live for, they're not afraid of doing anything. In my opinion, the siege and blockade of Gaza is more a threat to Israel itself than to anyone else.

She also noted that the issue of Israel being a Jewish state is something the Israelis themselves should decide.

Quite valid. People with nowhere to turn to will turn to drastic measures. Though the blockade arguably does have an effect, for weapons shipments have been intercepted because of it, I think it does overall more harm than good, since weapons are coming in anyways through the Egypt side, but I guess the blockade is slowing the rate in which weapons are coming into Gaza.

Also my friend was reading the book "World War Z" where it has a chapter where there is a civil war in Israel between the Haredi and the rest of the country. I honestly wouldnt be suprised if that happened.

[Vladimir]

Interesting opinion. It reminds me of what was said about Iraq: We invaded a subsidized welfare state with a poor work ethic and told them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Naturally, they objected.

Gaza is a welfare state. I don't buy the "unemployment" numbers because a lot of money flows into the country. People who work in the black market still make money but are also counted as unemployed. If they wanted to, they could turn their prime strip of real estate into the next Monte Carlo but their culture won't allow it and they'd loose their sources of free money.

The comment earlier about pride is important because their pride won't let them move on.

[Hooahguy]

The comment earlier about pride is important because their pride won't let them move on.

Yeah, well unfortunately thats seems to be a cornerstone of religious Muslims.

[Vladimir]

Yeah, well unfortunately thats seems to be a cornerstone of religious Muslims.

I think it's more of a cultural than religious phenomenon. A certain Italian captain comes to mind.

[Fragony]

It is what it is and nothing more than that, islam sucks

[Vladimir]

It is what it is and nothing more than that, islam sucks

No. Islam's great. It tells you exactly what to do and how to live your life in exquisite detail with little room for doubt.

[Greyblades]

As does scientology and the hypno toad.

[Fragony]

No. Islam's great. It tells you exactly what to do and how to live your life in exquisite detail with little room for doubt.

Sarcasm! That's not 100% absolutely superduper-yoooheyyyy, not at all.

You sir are a facist

[Vladimir]

Sarcasm! That's not 100% absolutely superduper-yoooheyyyy, not at all.

You sir are a facist

And a freedom hater.

Hypno Toad is all I need to find contentment.

[Hax]

Pride is indeed an important in communities all over the Middle-East. Not to spin off towards a meaningless tangent, but you'll find a major difference in attitude between Muslim Kurds living in an isolated mountain village in Turkey and a cosmopolitan Muslim living in Cairo.

The first thing people need to realise is that this is not a war of Jews versus Muslims or Muslims versus America.

[rvg]

Pride is indeed an important in communities all over the Middle-East...

And that's a huge problem because in and of itself pride is stupid. Pride in its every incarnation is a detriment, be it a proud American, proud Arab or proud Israeli.

[rvg]

=Gelatinous Cube;2053415013...Like any powerful emotion, it can be misused...

That's the problem: pride is an emotion and emotion is an enemy of rational thinking.

[rvg]

...To really be a rational thinker, you have to understand why you are having a particular emotion, and acknowledge that there are good and bad ways to express it...

That's rationalizing. And you can rationalize about pride just fine. The problem is when you're trying to rationalize about your pride WHILE you're beaming with pride. I would argue that being under influence of any emotion impairs your ability to rationalize.

[rvg]

Truly? I bet you felt emotions while writing that. A sense of accomplishment at having written something you believe to be worthwhile, at the very least.

Oh sure. It's not the presence of emotions but rather their intensity. Which is why they say that revenge is the dish best served cold. If somebody managed to really piss you off right now and you got really, REALLY mad at them, there's a chance that if you were to immediately respond to them you might say/do something you might regret. On the other hand, if you had a chance to sleep on it and give yourself time to cool off, your response would likely be different, more calculated.

[rvg]

There is far more to be gained, from a rational perspective, in understanding and embracing your emotions (and thus being more able to avoid situations you don't want to be in) than from supressing them.

And what I'm saying is that emotions can only be properly understood and embraced after they have subsided.

[rvg]

Well, yes. If that's what you were trying to say all along then I've been rambling for no reason and I'm sorry.

Nothing to be sorry for :)

[Vuk]

Can I still call you the Lion of Zion? :P

[Fragony]

Pride is indeed an important in communities all over the Middle-East. Not to spin off towards a meaningless tangent, but you'll find a major difference in attitude between Muslim Kurds living in an isolated mountain village in Turkey and a cosmopolitan Muslim living in Cairo.

The first thing people need to realise is that this is not a war of Jews versus Muslims or Muslims versus America.

Who cares, it's way too complicated for us to understand. How did you enjoy pointing out that Hamas actually is antisemit in the heart of the leeftist church, universities. They all know it's true but you are not supposed to point that out BAD HAX NEINNEINNEINNNEIN. They aren't going to talk to you in the same way anymore, no religion is as rigid as the leftist church, 100% OK or facist/zionist, no other flavour exists. Meet the leftist church, naturally become secular

[Papewaio]

That's the problem: pride is an emotion and emotion is an enemy of rational thinking.

Pride is fine. It's hubris you have to watch out for. Emotions are there to align our body to our sensory input, from both senses and mind.

Rational thought is excellent. But it isn't the top tier. Acting on thought, imagination and wisdom all trump rational thought.

[Moros]

As Shaka Khan said, I think its important that Jews feel they have a place to go if threatened. While I personally think that modern America fulfils that purpose, not everyone might think so.
Jews need a place to be proud of, a country that can stand up there with other great countries like the US and Britain, and say "I am a first world country. I represent democracy and freedom, and a home for Jews and anyone else who would like to live here."
Unfortunately that has been corrupted by the ultra-orthodox in the name of religion.
Unfortunately the crimes on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are very serious, and while we wish there to be peace, I dont think its coming any time soon.

Isn't also in a way the more orthodox who feel need for this state and thus not a logical step?

[PanzerJaeger]

I am sorry to read that you are having such a bad time, Hooah. At least when you return you will have a renewed appreciation for your homeland and the ability to recognize and stand up to the theocrats over here. As bad as your experience in Israel has been, it will ultimately make you a better American. Stay safe over there.

[CountArach]

Who cares, it's way too complicated for us to understand. How did you enjoy pointing out that Hamas actually is antisemit in the heart of the leeftist church, universities. They all know it's true but you are not supposed to point that out BAD HAX NEINNEINNEINNNEIN. They aren't going to talk to you in the same way anymore, no religion is as rigid as the leftist church, 100% OK or facist/zionist, no other flavour exists. Meet the leftist church, naturally become secular

Oh Frag, your anti-intellectualism amuses me so.

Gaza is a welfare state. I don't buy the "unemployment" numbers because a lot of money flows into the country.

As it does in Zimbabwe, etc.

People who work in the black market still make money but are also counted as unemployed.

Those who work in a black market job (I am guessing) largely do so because there is nowhere else to work. It would be a dangerous and illegal career and as such the people should still count towards unemployment statistics. Unless you mean those at the top of the black market trade, in which case they would make up such an insignificant fraction of the unemployment statistics so as to be neglible.

[Fragony]

Pride is fine. It's hubris you have to watch out for. Emotions are there to align our body to our sensory input, from both senses and mind.

Rational thought is excellent. But it isn't the top tier. Acting on thought, imagination and wisdom all trump rational thought.

Pride my foot, it's hate and resentment, wherever you go relgious muslims hate jews. It's in their book. And not living the book makes you a bad muslim. So you must hate jews to be a good one.It's that simple sometimes, unless you are that odd person who knows a muslim that doesn't hate the jews, raise your hand ('yes but' doesn't count that's so moderate). It is what it is

[CountArach]

Pride my foot, it's hate and resentment, wherever you go relgious muslims hate jews. It's in their book. And not living the book makes you a bad muslim. So you must hate jews to be a good one.It's that simple sometimes, unless you are that odd person who knows a muslim that doesn't hate the jews, raise your hand ('yes but' doesn't count that's so moderate). It is what it is

*Raises hand*

[Fragony]

@CA, glad I amuse you, but did your intelect even consider that someoone will one day refuse to accept the Nobel-peace price because he can't stand rhe hypocrcacy. Intellecualism is a small self-congratulating world that is rapidly losing it's shine

[Fragony]

*Raises hand*

And I don't believe you, it would mean that 99% of my dealings with mmuslims were just a state of mind. You are lying, put that hand back

[Hax]

No, you are the one who's lying.

I deal with Muslims on a daily basis. I attend classes , I discuss religion and I talk with Muslims on a daily basis in an academic environment. We have a Jewish girl in our class as well. There has never beenany kind of anti-Jewish sentinment express by anyone, and we have the most diverse kind of Muslims there; Shi‘ites, Sunni converts, Ahmadiyya, Sufis, Turkish supporters of Milli Görüs, Kemalists, etc.

You are not going to tell me who is a "proper" Muslim and that a real Muslim should hate Jews, because in that case, you are severely disconnected from reality. And I mean severely. You're not in any kind of position to pass out any judgement concerning this issue. Unless you believe that the only kind of real Muslims are those in Hamas, well boy, have I got news for you:

Hamas doesn't care about people. They're politicians in the worst sense of the word; my father (a Muslim) has personally talked to members of Hamas and he was less than stellar about them, in fact, he outright despises them for their consistent betrayal of the Palestinian people. Hamas is not interested in helping anyone, they only care about themselves.

How did you enjoy pointing out that Hamas actually is antisemit in the heart of the leeftist church, universities. They all know it's true but you are not supposed to point that out BAD HAX NEINNEINNEINNNEIN.

There are idiots everywhere; I bet that more than half of the people there don't have a basic understanding of Arabic or studied Islamic fundamentalism in the 20th century. I despise people like Gretta Duijsenberg for their betrayal of the legacy of what happened in Europe between 1939 and 1945, in my opinion, they're possibly the worst kind of political scum; to leech off and to abuse the Holocaust while simultaneously expressing support for a self-proclaimed (!) fundamentalist, terrorist organisation. They cannot be condemned hard enough.

Gaza is a welfare state. I don't buy the "unemployment" numbers because a lot of money flows into the country. People who work in the black market still make money but are also counted as unemployed. If they wanted to, they could turn their prime strip of real estate into the next Monte Carlo but their culture won't allow it and they'd loose their sources of free money.

I think I'm going to try to explain this as kindly as I can, but this is one of the worst things I've heard so far. There was an Israeli journalist who said exactly the same thing; "If they wanted to, they can turn Gaza into the next Dubai"; this is basically on the same level of discourse as "Palestine already exists, it's called Jordan" and "The Jews can live in Madagascar".

As an interesting note, after the lecture I went for drinks with the same Jewish girl I mentioned earlier and some of her friends (all of them Israelis themselves). Of course, after a couple of beers people got more loose-tongued and spoke more freely. The proposition that Gaza would magically turn into some kind of wonderland is an idea that has consistently been spread by right-wing Israeli media to justify the siege and blockade of the Gaza strip.

Economic sustainability of the Gaza strip would be a most excellent development. However, Israeli policy is currently directed towards denying any kind of economic self-sustainability or independence. The dismemberment of the Palestinian provinces I mentioned earlier had the goal of severely diminishing the Palestinian economy to the degree that they became completely dependent on humanitarian assistance. As to why? Well, don't forget that Gaza was the stronghold of Arab resistance against the Israelis, and there is a theory that this is just a way for punishment. I don't know. However, there is an undeniable fact, whether you like it or not, and that is that Israel's blockade and siege of Gaza have ground the economy to a near-halt.

In a sense, you're definitely correct. Gaza is a welfare state. Gaza has never been given the opportunity, neither by Israel nor by Hamas (and I can't stress this last point enough) to have their own functioning economy.

Yeah, well unfortunately thats seems to be a cornerstone of religious Muslims.

Ultra-orthodox. Salafis. Jihadis.

My grandfather was a member of the Sufi Rahmaniya movement (who incidentally, also led the Turkish resistance against the French in Algeria). From what I've heard (I've never known him personally), he was one of the most humble people my parents ever knew.

This is just my personal opinion; from what I've personally experienced with Muslims here (there's just one guy, a Dutch convert whom I very much dislike) and abroad that they are helpful, humble and very hospitable.

Interesting opinion. It reminds me of what was said about Iraq: We invaded a subsidized welfare state with a poor work ethic and told them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Naturally, they objected.

So the presence of foreign troops on their soil and the fact that a pro-western Shi‘ite-majority government was appointed had totally nothing to do with it.

Those damn Ay-rabs and their laziness.

[Fragony]

Oh Gretta, she's kinda family of mine, her dad married my grandma, and she was my mom's nanny. Trust me on this one, what was ugly 60 years ago is just as ugly now,

[Jolt]

Pride my foot, it's hate and resentment, wherever you go relgious muslims hate jews. It's in their book. And not living the book makes you a bad muslim. So you must hate jews to be a good one.It's that simple sometimes, unless you are that odd person who knows a muslim that doesn't hate the jews, raise your hand ('yes but' doesn't count that's so moderate). It is what it is

*raises hand* Muslim clerics, even.

[Hax]

Oh Gretta, she's kinda family of mine, her dad married my grandma, and she was my mom's nanny. Trust me on this one, what was ugly 60 years ago is just as ugly now,

Did you even read my post? I actually expressed my disgust for her; my father talked to her a couple of years back and he, too, thinks she's really misguided.