The continuation of my Israel experience thread

[lars573]

I've heard this type of thing before. From a Jewish Canadian journalist who did the same sort of thing. And his experience included working in a restaurant where the Palestinian kitchen workers had to hide from the Israeli customers. Otherwise their business would evaporate.

[Hooahguy]

I wouldnt even be able to recognize a Palestinian except if they are wearing a keffiyeh, they look so similar to many non-religious Israelis.

Also what really grinds my gears is how early everything shuts down where I live. I just got back from an outing to Jerusalem to see some friends. I got off the bus near the local pizza store near my institution at 10:45. Everything was shut down. I was really hungry so I was hoping that I could grab a slice, but nope, it was shut down too.
What the is wrong with this place?

[lars573]

I wouldnt even be able to recognize a Palestinian except if they are wearing a keffiyeh, they look so similar to many non-religious Israelis.

I make no claims to it's truthiness. Only that he related the anecdote in his article on being part of the second Gaza blockade flotilla. And that he claimed the Israeli customers of the shop would be able to recognize a Palestinian. Even if it was by how they spoke Arabic, and not some visual cue.

Also what really grinds my gears is how early everything shuts down where I live. I just got back from an outing to Jerusalem to see some friends. I got off the bus near the local pizza store near my institution at 10:45. Everything was shut down. I was really hungry so I was hoping that I could grab a slice, but nope, it was shut down too.
What the is wrong with this place?

It's under the sway of religious nut bags?

[Papewaio]

Pride my foot, it's hate and resentment, wherever you go relgious muslims hate jews. It's in their book. And not living the book makes you a bad muslim. So you must hate jews to be a good one.It's that simple sometimes, unless you are that odd person who knows a muslim that doesn't hate the jews, raise your hand ('yes but' doesn't count that's so moderate). It is what it is

Raises hand.

Waleed Aly is an example of a typical smart Aussie.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Not necessarily. For example, long opening times is as much a sign of economic need as anything else. Take for example the “supermarkets” that they have in semi-rural south east England. You know, where Sainsbury's is advertising with how it keeps the villages alive by providing a single extremely shy and probably not very well paid employee to man the counter of the local supermarket...

That's just (relative) poverty. Not religious freedom, per se. Those shops would otherwise not net enough revenue to keep going, so they have little choice but to accept very long opening times.

Similar shops in the Netherlands just don't bother with 06:00 - 23:00 opening hours, as they can afford not to.

EDIT: I als raise my hand for the knowing muslims who don't object to Jews scoreboard.

[Moros]

Raises both hands. Sorry frags, but the ones I know don't hate jews.

[Hax]

Even if it was by how they spoke Arabic, and not some visual cue.

Probably by the way they speak Hebrew. Of course, I think that they'd just try to avoid any contact, because at the moment they'd actually have to speak to Israelis, their Arabic accent would come through. I noticed this when talking to one of my Israeli friends, he kept saying "Chamas" while I pronounce it "Hamas" with as a voiceless pharyngeal fricative (I'd had to look that one up, hah).

[Fragony]

Ha all you raising your hand must have been asking the wrong questions, scratch the surface a little and things might just look less good. Try asking why the muslim world is such a mess for example. Want to make a bet on what the answer will be? Try pointing out that Hamas isn't very nice, Antisemitism is rabid among muslims, if you deny that I really got to question your judgement.

[Husar]

Ha all you raising your hand must have been asking the wrong questions, scratch the surface a little and things might just look less good. Try asking why the muslim world is such a mess for example. Want to make a bet on what the answer will be? Try pointing out that Hamas isn't very nice, Antisemitism is rabid among muslims, if you deny that I really got to question your judgement.

Might have something to do with semites charging into muslim lands, blowing people up and then re-establishing a state from 2000BC that they illegally grow further and further while thinking violence and threats are the best way to go forward? Just too bad that they ran into a bunch of similarly-minded people.

[Fragony]

Might have something to do with semites charging into muslim lands, blowing people up and then re-establishing a state from 2000BC that they illegally grow further and further while thinking violence and threats are the best way to go forward? Just too bad that they ran into a bunch of similarly-minded people.

And maybe it doesn't, the only thing that makes the difference is that Israel is a jewish state. A very small one I might add where jews have lived since forever

[Hooahguy]

Might have something to do with semites

Is semites really the best word? Considering the fact that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel in 1948 were from outside of the Middle East.

Also Im not really sure what to make of all this. On one hand, one cannot say that the UN vote to establish Israel was invalid. It wasnt muslim land. It was British land. Muslims owned tracts of it, but it was not a Muslim land. Plus there were Jewish communities there. And one cannot say that it was ok for the Arab league to attack the new state. On the other hand, it is wrong for Israel to be bombing Gaza plus the Arab discrimination. And one cannot say that bombing a pizza shop is ok either, as Ive heard one member here say before. And then one cannot deny the fact how Arab leaders are using the Palestinian refugee crisis for their own gain. If the Arab leaders really cared about the Palestinians, then they would do something. But on the other hand, the Israeli government isnt helping either.

What a quagmire.

[Jolt]

Is semites really the best word? Considering the fact that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel in 1948 were from outside of the Middle East.

Also Im not really sure what to make of all this. On one hand, one cannot say that the UN vote to establish Israel was invalid. It wasnt muslim land. It was British land. Muslims owned tracts of it, but it was not a Muslim land. Plus there were Jewish communities there. And one cannot say that it was ok for the Arab league to attack the new state. On the other hand, it is wrong for Israel to be bombing Gaza plus the Arab discrimination. And one cannot say that bombing a pizza shop is ok either, as Ive heard one member here say before. And then one cannot deny the fact how Arab leaders are using the Palestinian refugee crisis for their own gain. If the Arab leaders really cared about the Palestinians, then they would do something. But on the other hand, the Israeli government isnt helping either.

What a quagmire.

Well, Jews (like Arabs, mind you) are part of the Semite language-cultural group (The other major players were the Indo-Europeans and the Berber language-cultural groups).

Well, the major problem isn't the UN vote on a Jewish homeland. It's the hypocrisy that is behind it. Obviously the Jewish only got to vote on it thanks to the economical and political weight that they had in Western countries. If one's cultural group gets a chance to get a vote in the UN to recreate a State in antiquity when most of the Jews by then lived in the diaspora, what about the 1001 other cultural groups with different languages and cultures from the political elites that ruled them from another land? What about the Kurds? What about the Tamils? What about the Tibetans? What about the Kosovars, the Abkhazs, the Punjabis, the Baluchis? A whole different ranges of peoples living under a "different" country, that had their own political entity throughout history, and which, even contrary to the Jews themselves, never left their ancestral lands. Where is their vote?

Besides, it wasn't British land. It was a British Mandate. It was a land with international jurisdiction which had been delegated to Britain on behalf of the international authorities. Britain had recieved the mandate under international law to ensure the transition of the administration until the locals were ready to rule by themselves. It is necessary to point out that when Britain made these commitments, the report of the League of Nations (Old UN, which did grant the Mandate to Britain), showed that 80% of the total population of Palestine was Muslim. In the last Ottoman census, shortly before they entered World War I, the province even had more Christian families than Jewish ones.

What happened was that since the British got the Mandate, they closed their eyes to Jewish migration, which was absolutely huge and that by itself was a violation of their own commitments to the International Law.

As you said, Arab leaders did kind of care for the Palestinian people. That is why they attacked Israel. Repeatedly. If Israel had been established in a chunk of Turkish territory instead, I doubt Arab leaders would have cared that much. Mustafa Kemal, on the other hand, would have done his best to drive whatever waves of Jewish immigrants that were arriving, into the sea.

As to shops closing early, I do admit I don't quite understand why it happens. Here in the North of Portugal, bars and shop stay open until 9 PM. In the South of Portugal, by 8 PM, everything is closed. It's weird.

[Pannonian]

Is semites really the best word? Considering the fact that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel in 1948 were from outside of the Middle East.

Also Im not really sure what to make of all this. On one hand, one cannot say that the UN vote to establish Israel was invalid. It wasnt muslim land. It was British land. Muslims owned tracts of it, but it was not a Muslim land. Plus there were Jewish communities there. And one cannot say that it was ok for the Arab league to attack the new state. On the other hand, it is wrong for Israel to be bombing Gaza plus the Arab discrimination. And one cannot say that bombing a pizza shop is ok either, as Ive heard one member here say before. And then one cannot deny the fact how Arab leaders are using the Palestinian refugee crisis for their own gain. If the Arab leaders really cared about the Palestinians, then they would do something. But on the other hand, the Israeli government isnt helping either.

What a quagmire.

That's as good an argument for the legal establishment of Israel as I've seen. Enough Palestinian Jews made enough of a nuisance of themselves, backed by outside support, that the current rulers packed up and left it to an outside agency to sort out. The problem is that this doesn't make the Palestinian Arab side any less legitimate, only less successful. And of course, there is still the problem of ongoing land grabs in the West Bank, which have historically been the most legitimate justification for war. If the PLO declare formal war based on the Israeli annexation of the West Bank, Israel would have no justification left except the right of conquest.

[Husar]

Is semites really the best word?

I just derived that from anti-semite, if being against israeli actions is being anti-semite then surely israelis have to be semite or else that argument doesn't make sense in the first place.

What a quagmire.

Yup. As for it being British land, so was a lot of land, doesn't mean that the locals always liked or desired that either.

[Hooahguy]

I just derived that from anti-semite, if being against israeli actions is being anti-semite then surely israelis have to be semite or else that argument doesn't make sense in the first place.

Oh please, only overly zealous zionists (or, as I like to call them, OZZists) call people who disagree with Israeli actions anti-semites.

[Hax]

Abuse of the word anti-semitism is just a Zionist conspiracy.

Seriously though, anti-Israeli would make more sense; Arabs themselves are Semites, so yeah.

[Jolt]

Abuse of the word anti-semitism is just a Zionist conspiracy.

Seriously though, anti-Israeli would make more sense; Arabs themselves are Semites, so yeah.

Actually, anti-semitism has become the modern synonym of the word "Blasphemy". Blasphemy in it's meaning, is an action which is so utterly against God that is should in no way try to do the said action or even argue for it. "Anti-Semitism" has become the near comparison for the word. Calling something/someone Anti-Semitic invokes the very same social sanctions of the Blasphemic words. If someone says anything against Israel or Jews, they go: "Oh! Anti-Semitism! Look!"

Just replace Anti-Semitism with Blasphemy, and you have exactly the same purpose for the word.

[Hooahguy]

If someone says anything against Israel or Jews, they go: "Oh! Anti-Semitism! Look!"

Well, if you do say something against Jews it is Anti-semitism. Just like saying something against black people is racist.

Anyhow, Im going to tell my dad the truth today and tell him that I do not like it here and Id like to come home. Wish me luck.

[Fragony]

Oh please, only overly zealous zionists (or, as I like to call them, OZZists) call people who disagree with Israeli actions anti-semites.

Nah. Where are all the muslims and gutmensch when it's not about Israel? Gutmensch absolutely adores Palestinians at least if they not be simply anti-semites, maybe they can explain it to me one day. Will always solemny declare he has always rejected all violene, but thing is they never do that; 'yes but' is really the highest you can reach for.

[Sarmatian]

Well, if you do say something against Jews it is Anti-semitism. Just like saying something against black people is racist.

Anyhow, Im going to tell my dad the truth today and tell him that I do not like it here and Id like to come home. Wish me luck.

Good luck and congratz on sincerity.

[Pannonian]

Nah. Where are all the muslims and gutmensch when it's not about Israel? Gutmensch absolutely adores Palestinians at least if they not be simply anti-semites, maybe they can explain it to me one day. Will always solemny declare he has always rejected all violene, but thing is they never do that; 'yes but' is really the highest you can reach for.

If by Gutmensch you mean those who disapprove of Israel's actions, I don't particularly like Palestine either. My preference would be to just fence the area off and leave them to deal with themselves however they like, with anyone from the EU who ventures into there stripped of their EU citizenship. If the people there aren't inclined to listen to us, I don't see why we should be saddled with their disaffection.

[Hooahguy]

So I called my mom and dad. My dad was in a meeting and has yet to call me back, though he didnt get really mad when he heard I wanted to come home. My mom asked me why I wanted to come home but I found it hard to explain why since I cant tell them that I do not want to be religious since they would probably disown me.

[rvg]

So I called my mom and dad. My dad was in a meeting and has yet to call me back, though he didnt get really mad when he heard I wanted to come home. My mom asked me why I wanted to come home but I found it hard to explain why since I cant tell them that I do not want to be religious since they would probably disown me.

Tell them that the people there weren't religious enough for your taste and you can not stand their impious behavior.

[Ironside]

So I called my mom and dad. My dad was in a meeting and has yet to call me back, though he didnt get really mad when he heard I wanted to come home. My mom asked me why I wanted to come home but I found it hard to explain why since I cant tell them that I do not want to be religious since they would probably disown me.

Charming. Well, your opposition is mainly on how they express themself if I got you correctly. You can be a religious Christian without being a steriotypical religous right-winger, so you can probably be a religious Jew without being a mosque burning, US hating bigot.

[Pannonian]

Charming. Well, your opposition is mainly on how they express themself if I got you correctly. You can be a religious Christian without being a steriotypical religous right-winger, so you can probably be a religious Jew without being a mosque burning, US hating bigot.

Simetrical, a former admin at TWC, is a strict Orthodox Jew in his personal ethics, but he's very liberal/libertarian in how he views others. In terms of how they carry themselves, I doubt many would be more strictly orthodox than him, but outward bigotry or anything other than tolerance is alien to him. All religious people should be like him.

[Hooahguy]

Charming. Well, your opposition is mainly on how they express themself if I got you correctly. You can be a religious Christian without being a steriotypical religous right-winger, so you can probably be a religious Jew without being a mosque burning, US hating bigot.

Well they are pretty good people. I mean, they dont hate the US, and they have no plans on moving to Israel anytime soon. Plus they are pretty tolerant- I even heard my dad say once that Israel should at least reduce the number of airstrikes on Gaza.

[Jolt]

I even heard my dad say once that Israel should at least reduce the number of airstrikes on Gaza.

What are your parents opinions on settlements (Arguably one of the continued and reiterated deepest violations of International Law in the 21th Century)?

[Fragony]

If by Gutmensch you mean those who disapprove of Israel's actions, I don't particularly like Palestine either. My preference would be to just fence the area off and leave them to deal with themselves however they like, with anyone from the EU who ventures into there stripped of their EU citizenship. If the people there aren't inclined to listen to us, I don't see why we should be saddled with their disaffection.

Sounds fair enough. But I will remain suspicious of anyone who's superior morals are only triggered when it concerns Israel and who are united in silence when it's raining rockets. They can say it has nothing to do with Israel being a jewish state all they want, I don't believe them. 99.9999% of the world isn't Israel but gutmensch isn't interested in 99.9999% of the world

[Hooahguy]

What are your parents opinions on settlements (Arguably one of the continued and reiterated deepest violations of International Law in the 21th Century)?

No idea, never mentioned it.

So I talked with my dad, and I told him everything. Then he said that he will think it over and talk to people where I am, and if he decides that it would be best to come home, then I will come home ASAP.

[Pannonian]

Sounds fair enough. But I will remain suspicious of anyone who's superior morals are only triggered when it concerns Israel and who are united in silence when it's raining rockets. They can say it has nothing to do with Israel being a jewish state all they want, I don't believe them. 99.9999% of the world isn't Israel but gutmensch isn't interested in 99.9999% of the world

What do you think of Palestinian violence against Israeli border settlements in the West Bank?