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  1. #1

    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    you should use the hillfort soldiers and the illergetes and the iberian medium cavarly and even the basque ultra armoured if you can get them back into the game if you only use lusitanian native troops ofc you´re going to be missing alot of diversity you must use the iberian full rooster and not just the lusitanian native rooster

  2. #2
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    well the iberian heavy cav is good, but like i have pointed out the heaviest iberian infantry, the loricata scutarii is no match for even polybian hastati (cost-effectiveness that is, they are slightly better individually but at 2x the cost, and they will get owned by 2 hastati easy). im not debating the historical accurateness of this, but i was just a bit dissapointed, even more so when i found out that the dosidataskeli were taken out, a unit so awesome it would tip the balance back in their favor. i have modded them back in but somehow the feeling has gone. and yes the epones ambakaro (and generals bodyguard) were a big dissapoinment.

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  3. #3
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    Ambakaro Epones (and most sword wielding javelin cavalry) is underwhelming for several reasons.
    1. Cavalry secondaries are too weak compared to lances. It is actually better to use the lance in vanilla EB. We added +3 attack across the board for cavalry secondaries for MP.
    2. Javelin cavalry missile attacks are poor. 8 javs for each man in the unit isn't going to do much damage at all with their current attack modifier. For MP we added +'s depending on the unit considering the extra momentum a jav would get being thrown from a moving horse.
    3. Again falcatas and kopides are weak compared to axes. Raising lethality on these weapons is a good idea.

    After implementing these three factors across the board for all cavalry, I found Ambakaro Epones to be one of, if not the best anti-heavy cavalry unit in game. Without this, they are a crap unit that costs an arm and a leg. Most other skirmisher cavalry without spears are the same way. Although there are some changes in MP that might not be for everyone, these changes are relatively needed to make a lot of units in SP worthwhile, especially the sidearm using skirmisher cavalry.
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    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by moonburn View Post
    you should use the hillfort soldiers and the illergetes and the iberian medium cavarly and even the basque ultra armoured if you can get them back into the game if you only use lusitanian native troops ofc you´re going to be missing alot of diversity you must use the iberian full rooster and not just the lusitanian native rooster
    Not me. I am talking about that faction being run by the AI and that way has about the worst line-up in the entire mod.

    I myself had only once started a campaign with them, but also quitted very fast because of the extremly limited possibilities in recruiting anything good in the starting provinces. I think that was before the sheppard slingers made it in and you had absolutly no missle from the MICs.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  5. #5

    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by konny View Post
    Not me. I am talking about that faction being run by the AI and that way has about the worst line-up in the entire mod.
    That's an interesting point considering that Lusotannan AI does exceptionally well against other AI factions.
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  6. #6
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    in almost all my campaigns i have seen them losing vs the romans and carthage tho :S

    (i did give rome a boost tho by increasing their numbers of all infantry to 60/240)

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    I assume this is because of their AP bonus which apparently is valued high in autocalc.
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  8. #8
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    And also because they can build high quality factional units throughout all of Iberia. Armies of Scortamareva and Ambakaro are dangerous.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    I'm fairly certain that Roscaithrera have "normal" swords with 0.13 lethality. Milites Ilergetum are excellent, though.
    True, my bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by konny View Post
    Not me. I am talking about that faction being run by the AI and that way has about the worst line-up in the entire mod.

    I myself had only once started a campaign with them, but also quitted very fast because of the extremly limited possibilities in recruiting anything good in the starting provinces. I think that was before the sheppard slingers made it in and you had absolutly no missle from the MICs.
    A Lusotann army is very capable:

    Iovamann: cheap garrison

    iabarannta: Javelinners are great! They kill weakly armored enemies, stall most attackers or chase light cav.

    caetranann: They look cool. Am I the only one who picks units like that? They have a bad formation but that can be neutralized by letting them fight with other units. They also have 6 javelins.

    Gestikapoinann: Solid, fast and cheap spearmen. Great addition to flanking teams and good enough to hold most sections of a line.

    Scortamareva: One of the most heavily armored line-units and they can keep up with a Luso army.

    Ambakaro: Long range javelins, high morale and ap swords. Deadly assault unit. Don't let them become the target of heavy javelins or a heavy infantry charge. But you also don't use your FMs to frontally charge a phalanx line, do you? Also don't let them throw javelins when using them as assault troops.

    Ambakaro Epones: They are not weaker than similar units like Hetairoi Aspidophoroi or Tarentines. High price is not a problem as Luso armies should be mostly infantry and you get them for free as Bodyguards. Of course you can raise their stats and let your medium cavalry cut down cataphracts. And then conquer entire empires with just 2 units of FMs. That they need a boost in mp is of course reasonable.

    Lusotannan units all have their uses. They just lack units who are good at everything so it's no surprise the ai misuses them.



  10. #10

    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    anyway cost should be related to equipment and training. upkeep to being irregular, regular or elite (in the end that is usually similar to length of training and quality of equipment). and this is generally well balanced in EB, but the romans are a weird exception.
    Depends on what you mean by "generally well balanced." Across the board, units get less and less cost efficient as you climb the tech tree. By the time you've hit "elite" you are well into "grotesquely cost inefficient."

    well the iberian heavy cav is good, but like i have pointed out the heaviest iberian infantry, the loricata scutarii is no match for even polybian hastati (cost-effectiveness that is, they are slightly better individually but at 2x the cost, and they will get owned by 2 hastati easy).
    Yup, here you are running into the "cost effectiveness issue" I outlined above. Works that way with every faction.

    You are always better building levee units as any faction rather than teching up and building anything else. Since I personally don't like playing the game with nothing but generic levee spears or whatever, I "corrected" the issue by taking the stats that the MP folks use and applying them to single player. This seemed to generally improve cost-effectiveness by a fair bit across the board for all factions as you tech up.

    If you are interested in the modifications, just PM me. They would be a serious pain to do by hand but I've already edited the file and can send it to whoever wants it.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 02-10-2012 at 15:47.

  11. #11
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    i was talking about the cost balanced to their status, not the cost balanced to their skill or usefullness.

    well one thing ive always wondered about is defense skill, you have some mountain irregulars with higher defense skill than some heavily trained elites. and some superior or even elite faction units such as the pontikoi thorakitai or the ptolemaic galation guard unit with lower morale or equal morale as a normal levy... but eb just has too many units for me to bother with rebalancing stuff like that :P

    i do like what they have done with charges and missile units. strong from the side but alot weaker from the front.

    levies are quite good its true, definitly the archer spearmen and the phalanx ones but comparably units such as the thorakitai are most definitly very cost efficient. and 1 hetairo will still kill 2 prodromois or light cav which are half the price in a frontal charge.


    but ye early on you can better spam cheap units but in campaign you will reach a point where you have so much money to spend it doesnt matter what u build. and also the point of elite units is more their morale and shock power than cost effectiveness. when the line is wavering you want to throw in your elite units to break the enemy or hold your own line. ofcourse the brunt of your army would be this low level trooper

    but perhaps raising their unit from 30 to 40 would balance it out?



    i just ran a quick test

    1 spartiate = roughly 4 haploi in both cost and upkeep

    1 vs 4 the spartan loses

    2 vs 8 the spartans win


    both times i allowed myself to be surrounded. i lost all my spartans the first time and 71% the second time. but they are definitly worth the money but just require special use and thats quite historical.
    Last edited by The Stranger; 02-10-2012 at 12:00.

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  12. #12
    Apprentice Geologist Member Blxz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    The thing about the stats is that you want to consider why they were made that way. Defense skill, for example, gives you protection from the front and the right (your weapon hand). This defense ONLY works in close combat and does nothing against missiles. So a unit that is lightly armoured possibly with no shield but is still very capable in melee needs a way to actually work. In the current stat system (which is unmoddable, only the stats can be changed...not the effects) the team has created units that work in a certain way. So it is very important to understand why something was stated in a certain way. (and I won't even go into invisible stats like unit spacing, model attack speed and AP, to name a few).

    As for Nightmare's views, my opinion is well documented but I'll say it again in a concise way.
    I think he is missing the point. The game is not designed to be arcade style balanced where 1 mnai of currency equals a certain combat efficiency. The costs change based on a number of factors. Some are cost of equipment. A lamellar inlaid leather coat is not twice as good as a regular leather coat even though it costs twice as much.
    Other factors are historical unit availability. The pricing helps to keep the AI in check. An AI that is very limited in how moddable it is. (unfortunately)
    Finally, a single stack can consist of only 20 individual units. A stack of cheap levies is cost effective but may fail when you eed it most. You cannot increase its power any more than a total of 20. BUT if you do need MORE power then you are free to use other units. They are not as cost effective stat-to-cost as the levies but they have higher stats so, for a premium price, you can actually increase the maximum power of your fullstack of troops.

    Entirely optional and you, as the player, need to make the strategic choice (don't forget retraining radius).
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  13. #13
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lusotana Campaign

    another test 1 hypaspistai vs 4 haplois (again same recruitment and upkeep)

    my hypaspistai killed the enemy general and the haplois routed when about 50% of both armies were dead (54/123 losses on my side vs 370/649 on their side). and again i allowed myself to get almost totally surrounded, in a chokepoint the massacre would be bigger.

    ye i agree, and the quick test i ran showed the following

    elite units fight until death, they dont run like your levies will so even tho 2 spartans are about as cost effiecient as 8 haplois (and also cost about as much in terms of recruitment and upkeep, lets not go into details of teching up, training time in turns or number of soldiers vs city population) they can be relied upon to hold the line more effectively because they fight until death and they will be able to resist a charge of from flanks or rear better. and thats where you should use them and thats where they were used historically, on the weakest/most important parts of the battle where their morale and prowess would carry the day.

    no doubt 2 spartans and 4 haploi will totally annihilate 12 haplois. and im sure that 1 spartan on a chokepoint will hold off 6 haplois easy.


    i just ran another battle, 1 spartan in a village street vs 4 haplois. i lost 37 spartans and killed about 580 haplois with every haploi unit breaking around 15 units left of the 160. heroic victory and all. so in such a situation its obvious why youd want to take 1 spartan over 4 haplois and why they are definitly more cost efficient in certain situations (in every way except the tech thats required to get them).

    its really about how and where you use them.


    those thrakian romphoiblabla unit is such a beast! only unit that beats them so far in melee is the ordmalica (but that one has been removed from campaign XD) and the thraikian unit does much better vs heavily armoured elite units.
    Last edited by The Stranger; 02-10-2012 at 16:09.

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