Lusotana Campaign

[The Stranger]

ok thanks

and i dont want them to use the secondary weapon actually, they have swords principal, spears secundairy (the gods know why... i guess to defend vs cav) but they switch to the spears in close quarter combat which is ofcourse idiotic. so now ive taken the spears out entirely.



based on my tests id say that elites are cost-equivalent to slightly more cost efficient to normal levy units but they would be more effective in special situations because of their better stamina, discipline and morale.

in chokepoints the elite units win hands down and are easily 2x as cost efficient as the normal levy units.

good example of my last test

the Dubosaverlacica (Ebherni Armoured Shock Infantry) vs 5 hoplitai haploi
that is 121 men vs 811 men
3639 recruitment cost and 910 upkeep vs 4045 recruitment cost and 1008 upkeep

the Dubosaverlacica won the battle with 664 kills vs 67 losses and even lost their general in the middle of the fight. They were actively engaging 4 haploi at all time and 5 after they lost their general yet they didnt rout and ultimately broke the 4 haploi to finish off the generals unit which didnt join the fight until the middle part like i said. i didnt use the javelin ability of the unit.

the hypaspistai had similar results vs 4 haploi but in that case the general unit did more fighting earlier on. i am sure the hypaspistai will have a better result if they only use swords and dont switch to the secundairy spear weapon.

the spartans lost in the open field but won in the chokepoint, very hard.


i have been testing vs haploi atm cuz they have a very round upkeep and cost number and i read somehwere that they were one of the most cost efficient levy infantry in the game. i might run some tests later vs sword units or vs medium to heavy units

also perhaps i should run it vs a human player (without any tactical manouevers) because i cannot try as the haploi because the ai for some reason hit and runs hypaspistai in certain cases...

[Arjos]

and i dont want them to use the secondary weapon actually, they have swords principal

Soon as they are engaged, right click again on their target and they will switch to swords...

As for your tests, AI most of the times recharges, or do something silly like keep on walking, plus you are sending AP units against non-armoured opponents in some cases: the results are flawned...

In EB there's no such thing as the "ultimate" unit, each has a field in which it excels, but against a certain opponent, even cheaper, it will utterly fail...

[The Stranger]

i tried and it doesnt work really, or i have to constantly click. the secundairy weapon is for close quarter combat and i think the switch is hardcoded. its just stupid to have a spear as a close quarter combat weapon if the sword is your principal weapon -_-

[Arjos]

its just stupid to have a spear as a close quarter combat weapon if the sword is your principal weapon -_-

Unfortunately it was an animation issue or something similar, hoplitai should have a xiphos as secondary weapon for example...

It was decided for certain units to have the sword as primary weapon, even though historically the spear was the primary one, because those units were often used in close-quarters, assaulting with their swords...

Again about the tests: using general units makes the units perform differently than their real stats, due to morale bonus etc...

[The Stranger]

Unfortunately it was an animation issue or something similar, hoplitai should have a xiphos as secondary weapon for example...

It was decided for certain units to have the sword as primary weapon, even though historically the spear was the primary one, because those units were often used in close-quarters, assaulting with their swords...

Again about the tests: using general units makes the units perform differently than to their real stats, due to morale bonus etc...

they only get a morale bonus cuz of the generals bodyguard but seeing as that they are elite and their morale is already much higher i think this can be disregarded. besides the generals morale bonus is a area bonus so the enemy gets a similar bonus since the general is in the direct area (and not on the other side of the battlefield)

[Arjos]

i think this can be disregarded.

It has to do also with the general and officers (they have awesome stats), also their stamina is better...
Sometimes, almost by chance, the general could die, and in your test that unit would receive morale drops, it shouldn't get in an "objective" engagement...

In short they are not the same unit, in MP and all the people, who know a lot more about stats (it's gamey and boring to me :P), speak how generals render the data basically invalid...

As for the Srenis: 1v1 units, beside combat stats, spacing and mass influence immensely, that could be the answer...

[The Stranger]

allright, im willing to test vs a human and have the generals leave the field and then do the tests head on.

ofcourse i can see what nightmare is talking about, there are cases where upgrades are not really needed. like i am sure that if you manouver effectively you can annihilate 1 argyraspides with 2 pezhetairoi while the argyraspydes is almost 2x as expensive in upkeep (i dont know in recruitment cost). or just 1 on 1, i dont see any reason why you would want to pick the african heavy infantry over the heavy libyan infantry (the late version, not the early). sure the african heavys have 2 more morale, they have swords and a better charge but cost 1.75 times as much. and there are many more examples such as these (like why would you use spartan hoplites instead of epilektoi) and there is so little different between the elite african infantry and the sacred band, but the sacred band have 2 more moral for just 100 more recruitment cost and like 10 more upkeep. (thats why i am looking to mod the african elites into axewielding infantry instead of spearwielding ones, this atleast make their roles different and will give you a reason to use the african elites other than for show or history)

and if i play vs a human i can see my hypaspistai lose vs 4 haploi because he can pin me down with 3 haploi and use 1 to keep doing continuious charges in the rear doing much more damage than the envelopement that the ai does. yet at the same time i am equally sure that i will win with 1 hypaspistay and 4 haploi vs 8 haploi. because i can use my hypaspistai to pine down a large amount of units and use my haploi to do the same maneauvering and flanking charges. and there is no denying at all the in a chokepoint situation you will much rather want to have 1 spartan hoplite unit or 1 hypaspistay than 4 haploi even tho the cost and upkeep is similar.

[konny]

i tried and it doesnt work really, or i have to constantly click. the secundairy weapon is for close quarter combat and i think the switch is hardcoded. its just stupid to have a spear as a close quarter combat weapon if the sword is your principal weapon -_-

IRRC the entire unit uses secondary weapons when charging and when facing an opponent they had not been ordered to attack. This comes in handy when the enemy throws in additional cavalry, but it can become an anoyance when several enemy units are overlapping. In this case you cannot use the trick with the additional right click because they are always fighting another unit additionally what causes them to go back to the secondary weapon.

Additionally single figures switch to their secondary weapon when they had been knocked down, and stay with that weapon for the rest of the battle. That way, after some time of fighting, you'll have the entire front rank fighting with spears instead of swords.

All hardcoded issues, of course.