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Thread: Lusotana Campaign
I did extensive testing and it always came back that elites weren't worth it.
Just to throw some of my methodology at you:
In order to make tests as fair and accurate as possible, the bulk of my testing was testing troop types against the same troop types moving vertically up tier within the same faction. This eliminates question marks to the highest degree possible (counters, units against units of different types or different factions, etc) and gives the most accurate assessment, in my opinion.
To give you an example of what I'm talking about, you can assess Selucid pikes by testing Selucid levy pikes against a Selucid medium pike. The MP setup won't actually let you do this literally because it won't let you play the same faction against itself. But you can do the same thing by testing the Selucid levies against a Ptolemoi medium. Since these units are the same for the factions, it gives the same effect.
Just understand that the point with this methodology is to test a particular type of unit - say pikes - and to do it in such a way as to test it up the tier (levies against medium, levies against elite, mediums against elite, etc). This will give you the true measure of whether it is worth it to tech that particular unit up or not, because you have essentially pitted Selucid levy pikes against Selucid medium pikes and Selucid heavy pikes. Thus you pretty much know without a doubt which one is the most cost-effective. There aren't any question marks of cross-tier, or testing the unit against something that counters it, etc.
Anyway, unless there's an objection I recommend you use this methodology and then come back and report results.
Just to throw some of my methodology at you:
In order to make tests as fair and accurate as possible, the bulk of my testing was testing troop types against the same troop types moving vertically up tier within the same faction. This eliminates question marks to the highest degree possible (counters, units against units of different types or different factions, etc) and gives the most accurate assessment, in my opinion.
To give you an example of what I'm talking about, you can assess Selucid pikes by testing Selucid levy pikes against a Selucid medium pike. The MP setup won't actually let you do this literally because it won't let you play the same faction against itself. But you can do the same thing by testing the Selucid levies against a Ptolemoi medium. Since these units are the same for the factions, it gives the same effect.
Just understand that the point with this methodology is to test a particular type of unit - say pikes - and to do it in such a way as to test it up the tier (levies against medium, levies against elite, mediums against elite, etc). This will give you the true measure of whether it is worth it to tech that particular unit up or not, because you have essentially pitted Selucid levy pikes against Selucid medium pikes and Selucid heavy pikes. Thus you pretty much know without a doubt which one is the most cost-effective. There aren't any question marks of cross-tier, or testing the unit against something that counters it, etc.
Anyway, unless there's an objection I recommend you use this methodology and then come back and report results.
Originally Posted by Nightmare:
I did extensive testing and it always came back that elites weren't worth it.
Just to throw some of my methodology at you:
In order to make tests as fair and accurate as possible, the bulk of my testing was testing troop types against the same troop types moving vertically up tier within the same faction. This eliminates question marks to the highest degree possible (counters, units against units of different types or different factions, etc) and gives the most accurate assessment, in my opinion.
To give you an example of what I'm talking about, you can assess Selucid pikes by testing Selucid levy pikes against a Selucid medium pike. The MP setup won't actually let you do this literally because it won't let you play the same faction against itself. But you can do the same thing by testing the Selucid levies against a Ptolemoi medium. Since these units are the same for the factions, it gives the same effect.
Just understand that the point with this methodology is to test a particular type of unit - say pikes - and to do it in such a way as to test it up the tier (levies against medium, levies against elite, mediums against elite, etc). This will give you the true measure of whether it is worth it to tech that particular unit up or not, because you have essentially pitted Selucid levy pikes against Selucid medium pikes and Selucid heavy pikes. Thus you pretty much know without a doubt which one is the most cost-effective. There aren't any question marks of cross-tier, or testing the unit against something that counters it, etc.
Anyway, unless there's an objection I recommend you use this methodology and then come back and report results.
well what do you think about what arjos said of the general? I did extensive testing and it always came back that elites weren't worth it.
Just to throw some of my methodology at you:
In order to make tests as fair and accurate as possible, the bulk of my testing was testing troop types against the same troop types moving vertically up tier within the same faction. This eliminates question marks to the highest degree possible (counters, units against units of different types or different factions, etc) and gives the most accurate assessment, in my opinion.
To give you an example of what I'm talking about, you can assess Selucid pikes by testing Selucid levy pikes against a Selucid medium pike. The MP setup won't actually let you do this literally because it won't let you play the same faction against itself. But you can do the same thing by testing the Selucid levies against a Ptolemoi medium. Since these units are the same for the factions, it gives the same effect.
Just understand that the point with this methodology is to test a particular type of unit - say pikes - and to do it in such a way as to test it up the tier (levies against medium, levies against elite, mediums against elite, etc). This will give you the true measure of whether it is worth it to tech that particular unit up or not, because you have essentially pitted Selucid levy pikes against Selucid medium pikes and Selucid heavy pikes. Thus you pretty much know without a doubt which one is the most cost-effective. There aren't any question marks of cross-tier, or testing the unit against something that counters it, etc.
Anyway, unless there's an objection I recommend you use this methodology and then come back and report results.
i understand what you are saying tho and i did start my initial test using this method.
the spartan is a top tier of greeks and haploi is the levy. on open field 1 spartan lost vs 4 haploi but 2 spartans won vs 8 haploi. in a city street, and only frontal assault the spartans beat 4 haploi but i am sure they can take on atleast 6 haploi in that case.
hypaspistai is a tricky one because it is sword based, but it can be seen as a top tier version of the haploi (armed same fashion, with attack/defense balance being roughly similar) the hypaspistai won as well.
the dosidataskeli can be seen as a very armoured spartan hoplite and that was even far more superior. i am reluctant to try it vs the lower vershions of the lusotannan because the ai does repeated missile throwing in melee combat... perhaps i can disable the javelin throwing and then try again. tho undoubtly the caetrannan will do a good job because of the AP.
anyway, i will do some more testing in a bit. the spartan result still stands tho
i ran 4 tests, 2 times 1 vs 4 in the open both lost by the spartan. 1 time 2 vs 8 in the open won by the spartans, 1 time 1 vs 4 in a village also won by the spartans.
if you think being a general bodyguard unit doesnt really matter, then i will run some more of these tests.
I was talking about objective failproof data ^^
Test away, years ago I spent even too much time doing this XD
But in the end in SP you can conquer the world with 2 FM units or anything lol
And MP, we use a different edu and there are rules etc...
Test away, years ago I spent even too much time doing this XD
But in the end in SP you can conquer the world with 2 FM units or anything lol
And MP, we use a different edu and there are rules etc...
ok here are the first results
Carthage:
Levy = Misteret Ezra'him (Poeni Citizen Militia)
Elite = Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry)
Because the I could not use the Levy of Carthage I used the Hoplitai Haploi which are actually even better for the same cost.
Results:
1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 536 kills for Elite vs 73 kills for Levy
1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 561 kills for Elite vs 71 kills for Levy
1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 692 kills for Elite vs 79 kills for Levy
1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 730 kills for Elite vs 76 kills for Levy
Specifics:
Map is Grassy Flatlands.
Every time I started with 2 Elite units and immediately marched my general unit off the field, this way the general will not have an impact on my side, the AI still has a general so if what Arjos says is true, these results should favor the Elite even more.
In the 1 vs 4 battles I was enveloped by 3 units and surrounded completely, with the general unit performing charge-ins all the the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.
In the 1 vs 5 battles I was enveloped by 4 units and surrounded completely, but the general unit remained idle for most of the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.
Judgment:
Elite wins this hands down, definitely when considering that the Carthaginian levy is worse than the Haploi.
Carthage:
Levy = Misteret Ezra'him (Poeni Citizen Militia)
Elite = Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry)
Because the I could not use the Levy of Carthage I used the Hoplitai Haploi which are actually even better for the same cost.
Results:
1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 536 kills for Elite vs 73 kills for Levy
1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 561 kills for Elite vs 71 kills for Levy
1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 692 kills for Elite vs 79 kills for Levy
1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 730 kills for Elite vs 76 kills for Levy
Specifics:
Map is Grassy Flatlands.
Every time I started with 2 Elite units and immediately marched my general unit off the field, this way the general will not have an impact on my side, the AI still has a general so if what Arjos says is true, these results should favor the Elite even more.
In the 1 vs 4 battles I was enveloped by 3 units and surrounded completely, with the general unit performing charge-ins all the the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.
In the 1 vs 5 battles I was enveloped by 4 units and surrounded completely, but the general unit remained idle for most of the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.
Judgment:
Elite wins this hands down, definitely when considering that the Carthaginian levy is worse than the Haploi.
Originally Posted by Nightmare:
I did extensive testing and it always came back that elites weren't worth it.
Just understand that the point with this methodology is to test a particular type of unit - say pikes - and to do it in such a way as to test it up the tier (levies against medium, levies against elite, mediums against elite, etc). This will give you the true measure of whether it is worth it to tech that particular unit up or not, because you have essentially pitted Selucid levy pikes against Selucid medium pikes and Selucid heavy pikes. Thus you pretty much know without a doubt which one is the most cost-effective. There aren't any question marks of cross-tier, or testing the unit against something that counters it, etc.
Anyway, unless there's an objection I recommend you use this methodology and then come back and report results.
OK:I did extensive testing and it always came back that elites weren't worth it.
Just understand that the point with this methodology is to test a particular type of unit - say pikes - and to do it in such a way as to test it up the tier (levies against medium, levies against elite, mediums against elite, etc). This will give you the true measure of whether it is worth it to tech that particular unit up or not, because you have essentially pitted Selucid levy pikes against Selucid medium pikes and Selucid heavy pikes. Thus you pretty much know without a doubt which one is the most cost-effective. There aren't any question marks of cross-tier, or testing the unit against something that counters it, etc.
Anyway, unless there's an objection I recommend you use this methodology and then come back and report results.
1) Ran nine tests of one Human Levy Phalanx against one CPU Medium Phalanx (various combinations from 6 different factions to make sure that wasn't a contributing factor). Battle on level grassy terrain at Medium Difficulty. Result? 1 Levy win vs. 8 Medium wins
2) Ran nine more tests of one Human Medium Phalanx against one CPU Levy Phalanx (various combinations from 6 different factions to make sure that wasn't a contributing factor). Battle on level grassy terrain at Medium Difficulty. Result? 7 Medium wins vs. 2 Levy wins
Whether that proves it's "worth it" to tech up is debateable since good tactical play will almost always offset unit quality differences (as the EB quote says, Army of sheep led by a lion beats an army of lions led by a sheep), but you can't dispute that all else being equal, Mediums will usually defeat Levies.
you are not taking in account actual cost of recruitment and upkeep. there is no doubt that 1 single elite is worth more than 1 single levy, but 1 single elite can be worth as much as 4 single levies. and the question is, can 1 elite take on 4 single levies. my view is that they can and i think i have the stats to prove it.
Koinon Hellenon:
Levy = Hoplitai Haploi
Elite = Epilektoi Hoplitai
Results:
1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 480 kills for Elite vs 59 kills for Levy (Levy general was killed > big rout)
1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 558 kills for Elite vs 50 kills for Levy
1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 510 kills for Elite vs 122 kills for Levy (Epilektoi broke at 10 > fight to death)
1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 697 kills for Elite vs 88 kills for Levy
Specifics:
Map is Grassy Flatlands.
In the 1 vs 4 battles I started with 2 Elite units and immediately marched my general unit off the field, this way the general will not have an impact on my side, the AI still has a general so if what Arjos says is true, these results should favor the Elite even more. However the Epilektoi Hoplitai for some reason are more prone to the morale penalty of the General leaving the field and broke everytime they got surrounded by 5 Haploi. So I decided to leave the general on the field but well out of range. The AI ignored my general unit and the rest of the fighting continued normally.
In the 1 vs 4 battles I was enveloped by 3 units and surrounded completely, with the general unit performing charge-ins all the the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.
In the 1 vs 5 battles I was enveloped by 5 units and surrounded completely, the general unit actively engaged combat for 75% of the battle, only leaving for charge-ins at the end when it was already lost.
Judgment:
Some weird results. The Epilektoi do better than the Elite Africans vs 4 Haploi but do quite alot worse vs 5. I perhaps the reason is the total envelopement by 5 units, I am not sure. While both have 16 morale, the Epilektoi broke while the Elite Africans did not. Regardless, the Elite unit still won this, and I am sure that on choke points it is no contest at all.
Arche Seleukeia:
Levy = Pantodapoi
Elite = Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou (Hellenic Elite Spearmen)
Results:
1 Thorakitai vs 5 Pantodapoi = 708 kills for Elite vs 53 kills for Levy (Big rout started, general was not killed)
1 Thorakitai vs 5 Pantodapoi = 824 kills for Elite vs 70 kills for Levy (I had 80 left when 4 units routed, I lost another 30 in the fight after 3 of them rallied because of asymmetry in positions and charges etc.)
1 Thorakitai vs 6 Pantodapoi = 888 kills for Elite vs 50 kills for Levy
1 Thorakitai vs 6 Pantodapoi= 1160 kills for Elite vs 90 kills for Levy
Specifics:
Map is Grassy Flatlands.
In all battles I started with 2 Elite units and immediately marched my general unit off the field, this way the general will not have an impact on my side, the AI still has a general so if what Arjos says is true, these results should favor the Elite even more.
I did not use the javelin ability of the Thorakitai.
In the 1 vs 5 battles I was enveloped by 4 units and surrounded completely, with the general unit performing charge-ins all the the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.
In the first 1 vs 6 battle I was enveloped by 5 units and but not completely surrounded, there was a small gap in the back, the general unit did not engage untill the other units had routed. They did rally and return but I lost maybe 10 more soldiers.
The second 1 vs 6 battle I was enveloped by 5 units and this time completely surrounded. the general unit did not engage untill the other units had routed. In the end my unit had gained 4 chevrons.
Judgment:
Epic results. 5 Pantodapoi cost slightly more in recruitment and upkeep than 1 Thorakitai, but 6 is alot out of proportion and still the Thorakitai win the battle. In a chokepoint this will be a total massacre. The Pantodapoi do rout faster than the Haploi and they have worse stats but 50% more soldiers.
Anyway, I can continue this but I think these few stats show that the elite units definitly do a great job. I might do some barbarian factions next and then switch to medium vs elite.
Levy = Hoplitai Haploi
Elite = Epilektoi Hoplitai
Results:
1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 480 kills for Elite vs 59 kills for Levy (Levy general was killed > big rout)
1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 558 kills for Elite vs 50 kills for Levy
1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 510 kills for Elite vs 122 kills for Levy (Epilektoi broke at 10 > fight to death)
1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 697 kills for Elite vs 88 kills for Levy
Specifics:
Map is Grassy Flatlands.
In the 1 vs 4 battles I started with 2 Elite units and immediately marched my general unit off the field, this way the general will not have an impact on my side, the AI still has a general so if what Arjos says is true, these results should favor the Elite even more. However the Epilektoi Hoplitai for some reason are more prone to the morale penalty of the General leaving the field and broke everytime they got surrounded by 5 Haploi. So I decided to leave the general on the field but well out of range. The AI ignored my general unit and the rest of the fighting continued normally.
In the 1 vs 4 battles I was enveloped by 3 units and surrounded completely, with the general unit performing charge-ins all the the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.
In the 1 vs 5 battles I was enveloped by 5 units and surrounded completely, the general unit actively engaged combat for 75% of the battle, only leaving for charge-ins at the end when it was already lost.
Judgment:
Some weird results. The Epilektoi do better than the Elite Africans vs 4 Haploi but do quite alot worse vs 5. I perhaps the reason is the total envelopement by 5 units, I am not sure. While both have 16 morale, the Epilektoi broke while the Elite Africans did not. Regardless, the Elite unit still won this, and I am sure that on choke points it is no contest at all.
Arche Seleukeia:
Levy = Pantodapoi
Elite = Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou (Hellenic Elite Spearmen)
Results:
1 Thorakitai vs 5 Pantodapoi = 708 kills for Elite vs 53 kills for Levy (Big rout started, general was not killed)
1 Thorakitai vs 5 Pantodapoi = 824 kills for Elite vs 70 kills for Levy (I had 80 left when 4 units routed, I lost another 30 in the fight after 3 of them rallied because of asymmetry in positions and charges etc.)
1 Thorakitai vs 6 Pantodapoi = 888 kills for Elite vs 50 kills for Levy
1 Thorakitai vs 6 Pantodapoi= 1160 kills for Elite vs 90 kills for Levy
Specifics:
Map is Grassy Flatlands.
In all battles I started with 2 Elite units and immediately marched my general unit off the field, this way the general will not have an impact on my side, the AI still has a general so if what Arjos says is true, these results should favor the Elite even more.
I did not use the javelin ability of the Thorakitai.
In the 1 vs 5 battles I was enveloped by 4 units and surrounded completely, with the general unit performing charge-ins all the the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.
In the first 1 vs 6 battle I was enveloped by 5 units and but not completely surrounded, there was a small gap in the back, the general unit did not engage untill the other units had routed. They did rally and return but I lost maybe 10 more soldiers.
The second 1 vs 6 battle I was enveloped by 5 units and this time completely surrounded. the general unit did not engage untill the other units had routed. In the end my unit had gained 4 chevrons.
Judgment:
Epic results. 5 Pantodapoi cost slightly more in recruitment and upkeep than 1 Thorakitai, but 6 is alot out of proportion and still the Thorakitai win the battle. In a chokepoint this will be a total massacre. The Pantodapoi do rout faster than the Haploi and they have worse stats but 50% more soldiers.
Anyway, I can continue this but I think these few stats show that the elite units definitly do a great job. I might do some barbarian factions next and then switch to medium vs elite.
i get the feeling nightmare doesnt really finish his campaigns. he seems to be able to retrain his levies everywhere and thats why he likes them. in my end game campaigns i really need those elites because im fighting far from my homeland and my armies get depleted more slowly with elites
sorry for doublepost but this is especially true for hellenistic campaigns, in nightmares previous threads he discusses mostly getai, casse or KH. Getai and Casse are barbarion factions and have regional mics and some factional ones all over europe, making access to levies easier. KH has cities spread all over the map so same thing. but if he played an hellenistic faction into the lat game, he will see the usefulness of elites
Originally Posted by seleucid empire:
i get the feeling nightmare doesnt really finish his campaigns. he seems to be able to retrain his levies everywhere and thats why he likes them. in my end game campaigns i really need those elites because im fighting far from my homeland and my armies get depleted more slowly with elites
I concur, lower quality troops tend to take grislier casualties. I for a rule tend to take a healthy balance of elite, medium and low quality troops (2:5:3) for my campaigning armies abroad. The levies serve as nice cannon fodder to soak up the casualties (which can be easily replaced by mercs and locals). In hellenistic armies that means they do a lot of skirmishing; in celtic armies they tend to stand in the middle of the line (bolstered by the elites in morale) and take up the grind. Medium quality troops (ie Thuerophoroi or Bataroas) tend to make excellent flank guards and/or flankers.i get the feeling nightmare doesnt really finish his campaigns. he seems to be able to retrain his levies everywhere and thats why he likes them. in my end game campaigns i really need those elites because im fighting far from my homeland and my armies get depleted more slowly with elites
I think hes talking from MP perspective but im not sure.
anyway ran some unoffcial tests (due to problems with javelins and secundairy weapons) with iberian and celtic elites but they are considerably worse, or perhaps the barbarian levies are considerably better (atleast bigger).
The solduros lost vs 4 lugoae both using only swords (primary) and only spears (secundary). but they did beat 5 hoplitai haploi (using only their primary), tho they did a worse job than the epilektoi and the elite africans.
however the dosidataskeli is one of the most effective ive seen so far. easily 2x as cost effective vs hoplitai haploi and pantodapoi. and that is in the open field, on a chokepoint i am sure they can stop 4x. i am aware they are taken out but the Thorakitai Agemata of Arche Seleukeia is only slightly inferior.
here is the result of 1 dosidataskeli (with general and i did use my javelins this time) vs 10 hoplitai haploi (about 2x more expensive in upkeep and recruitment). i was completely surrounded = 1412 kills vs 85 losses
and this is a city defense of 3 dosidataskeli (364 men) vs 60 hoplitai haploi (9723 men). That is about 4x their cost in upkeep and recruitment.
Result: Close Defeat (because I got pushed off the city square, I wouldve lost but couldve killed more) = 6945 kills and 328 losses.
Now unless anyone can defend a village from 3 sides with 12 hoplitai haploi (same cost as 3 dosidataskeli) I am going to declare the Dosidataskeli SUPERCOSTEFFECTIVE to the point of INSANITY.
anyway ran some unoffcial tests (due to problems with javelins and secundairy weapons) with iberian and celtic elites but they are considerably worse, or perhaps the barbarian levies are considerably better (atleast bigger).
The solduros lost vs 4 lugoae both using only swords (primary) and only spears (secundary). but they did beat 5 hoplitai haploi (using only their primary), tho they did a worse job than the epilektoi and the elite africans.
however the dosidataskeli is one of the most effective ive seen so far. easily 2x as cost effective vs hoplitai haploi and pantodapoi. and that is in the open field, on a chokepoint i am sure they can stop 4x. i am aware they are taken out but the Thorakitai Agemata of Arche Seleukeia is only slightly inferior.
here is the result of 1 dosidataskeli (with general and i did use my javelins this time) vs 10 hoplitai haploi (about 2x more expensive in upkeep and recruitment). i was completely surrounded = 1412 kills vs 85 losses
and this is a city defense of 3 dosidataskeli (364 men) vs 60 hoplitai haploi (9723 men). That is about 4x their cost in upkeep and recruitment.
Result: Close Defeat (because I got pushed off the city square, I wouldve lost but couldve killed more) = 6945 kills and 328 losses.
Now unless anyone can defend a village from 3 sides with 12 hoplitai haploi (same cost as 3 dosidataskeli) I am going to declare the Dosidataskeli SUPERCOSTEFFECTIVE to the point of INSANITY.
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