Crusader Kings II

**Chaotix** · 02-19-2013, 23:00

Yeah, as the Byzantines you can get powerful enough before the hordes arrive that they won't even want to declare war on you.

If you play as them in the 1081 start (Alexiad) it's a little more interesting as you have the Rum Sultanate to contend with first, but once you've beaten them and taken back half of Anatolia you're set for the rest of the campaign. The fun in playing the Basileus mostly comes from restoring the Roman Empire somewhere down the line.

I've just mended the schism in my game, but it was a pain getting a claim on Rome and it'll be more annoying to get claims on Genoa and Venice, who both converted to Orthodox with the change. After that, though, it's Imperial Conquest CB all the way till I restore the Empire's historical borders!

**Ishmael** · 02-19-2013, 23:47

Yikes. I've been playing a game in Spain and the British Isles (I swapped to an Irish count of my dynasty once I became Emperor of Hispania), and so hadn't really given much thought to the Hordes, especially after they both near-simultaneously converted to Nestorianism. However, whilst idly browsing the 'independent realms' ledger I noticed the Ikkhanate has a 250 thousand strong army, with the Golden Horde having another 150 thousand. I'm thinking once I've fully united Britain I'll switch to the fairly powerful Kingdom of Greece (also of my dynasty) and see if I can take them on. Are their troops still resistant to attrition after they convert?

**Monk** · 02-20-2013, 00:11

Originally Posted by Ishmael

Yikes. I've been playing a game in Spain and the British Isles (I swapped to an Irish count of my dynasty once I became Emperor of Hispania), and so hadn't really given much thought to the Hordes, especially after they both near-simultaneously converted to Nestorianism. However, whilst idly browsing the 'independent realms' ledger I noticed the Ikkhanate has a 250 thousand strong army, with the Golden Horde having another 150 thousand. I'm thinking once I've fully united Britain I'll switch to the fairly powerful Kingdom of Greece (also of my dynasty) and see if I can take them on. Are their troops still resistant to attrition after they convert?

Wow, what? That can't all be doomstacks... how big are the hordes in your world? Show us a screenshot!

edit: As far as I know, once the horde converts they can still use their doomstacks (and yes they are attrition proof) but they lose the ability to call their powerful invasions. They are forced to use the claim system or fight holy wars for single duchies at a time.

Fortunately, if they are powerful and have large areas of land, those numbers you are seeing might be coming from more traditional levy and retinue caps which do suffer attrition.

**Ishmael** · 02-20-2013, 02:58

Originally Posted by Monk

Wow, what? That can't all be doomstacks... how big are the hordes in your world? Show us a screenshot!

edit: As far as I know, once the horde converts they can still use their doomstacks (and yes they are attrition proof) but they lose the ability to call their powerful invasions. They are forced to use the claim system or fight holy wars for single duchies at a time.

Fortunately, if they are powerful and have large areas of land, those numbers you are seeing might be coming from more traditional levy and retinue caps which do suffer attrition.

This is my first game that's lasted until the hordes arrived, and it's proved to be pretty interesting:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I started as Castille, and managed to unite Spain (except for a chunk on the east coast owned by Pisa). In the process, I managed to put a ruler of my dynasty on the throne of Sicily and Greece, both of which were won in crusades. Sicily started out strong, taking most of the land in North Africa that Greece currently owns, but lost the majority of it's territory to Greece through inter-realm inheritance and a few wars. Greece went surprisingly well considering that their founding ruler was an imbecile, but with only a little support from Spain they managed to carve out a fair chunk of territory. I don't think they've ever been allied to the Byzantine Empire, but together they managed to break the backs of the Muslim powers before the Hordes arrived (which contributed greatly to the success of the Ilkhanate). Islam is now practically extinct in Europe.

Nothing particularly exciting had been happening in the rest of the world. France had been a powerhouse for about one hundred years (being a very helpful ally of Castille when it was first growing), but now is a patchwork of independent states. The HRE has stood strong throughout, expanding into Norway and Finland. Unfortunately they were struck by their first major civil war just as their allies the Cumans (who had united all of Russia and fielded about 80000 levies) were attacked by the Golden Horde, which ended poorly for them. The Pope launched a crusade to retake Poland, but as the HRE did not deign to take part it failed miserably. However, somewhat miraculously both the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate converted nigh-simultaneously to Nestorianism about 30 years ago, and since then their borders have been frozen pretty much in their current locations.

Current plans are to finish up with unifying Britain, then I'll swap over to Greece, take out the Byzantine Empire and defeat the Ilkhanate somehow. Easy, right?

**Chaotix** · 02-20-2013, 03:51

That's quite a campaign plan.

Think you can do all of it in just 140 years?

And 250k levies is actually not ridiculous for ~1300 (~1200, when the Mongols arrive, is really stretching it though). Impressive for a computer-controlled nation though, usually I only see the Fatimids/Seljuks, or maybe HRE or Byz get to be that big. I guess it makes sense with the Mongols.

**Monk** · 02-20-2013, 04:00

Originally Posted by Ishmael

This is my first game that's lasted until the hordes arrived, and it's proved to be pretty interesting:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I started as Castille, and managed to unite Spain (except for a chunk on the east coast owned by Pisa). In the process, I managed to put a ruler of my dynasty on the throne of Sicily and Greece, both of which were won in crusades. Sicily started out strong, taking most of the land in North Africa that Greece currently owns, but lost the majority of it's territory to Greece through inter-realm inheritance and a few wars. Greece went surprisingly well considering that their founding ruler was an imbecile, but with only a little support from Spain they managed to carve out a fair chunk of territory. I don't think they've ever been allied to the Byzantine Empire, but together they managed to break the backs of the Muslim powers before the Hordes arrived (which contributed greatly to the success of the Ilkhanate). Islam is now practically extinct in Europe.

Nothing particularly exciting had been happening in the rest of the world. France had been a powerhouse for about one hundred years (being a very helpful ally of Castille when it was first growing), but now is a patchwork of independent states. The HRE has stood strong throughout, expanding into Norway and Finland. Unfortunately they were struck by their first major civil war just as their allies the Cumans (who had united all of Russia and fielded about 80000 levies) were attacked by the Golden Horde, which ended poorly for them. The Pope launched a crusade to retake Poland, but as the HRE did not deign to take part it failed miserably. However, somewhat miraculously both the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate converted nigh-simultaneously to Nestorianism about 30 years ago, and since then their borders have been frozen pretty much in their current locations.

Current plans are to finish up with unifying Britain, then I'll swap over to Greece, take out the Byzantine Empire and defeat the Ilkhanate somehow. Easy, right?

Incredible. I've never seen such an even split between religions so late in the game. Muslim religions are almost gone and the hordes picked Nestorian of all things to convert to? Talk about random... I love it! The hordes won't be getting any more reinforcement stacks, that's for sure. Not only because it's passed 1300 but also because they converted. And since the Il-Khanate has some of the most prosperous lands in the game (those persian provinces are incredible troop producers) I wouldn't be surprised if more than a large part of that troop count came from levies.

Your world is divided between east and west with nigh perfect religion borders. A fragmented west facing off against a unified East. You've got a monumental task ahead of you but I gotta admit, I'm a little envious. That's gonna be all sorts of fun.

The Timurids will be coming sometime after 1360 and represent the "final boss" of the campaign. Timur will be striking the Il-Khanate through Khiva. Time your initial strikes to coincide with his advance. His vanguards should put a serious dent into any remaining doomstacks the Il-Khanate may have and may give you a powerful opening to begin your bloody work.

And remember. The timer runs out at 1453. Good luck

**Beskar** · 02-20-2013, 15:10

A quick modding could push the date back further, though the army stacks will really get large then. A fully upgraded county will rival a starting countries army.

I have noticed the weirdest thing in my game, 'White Ethiopians'. Due to some marriage choices and things of the Abyssinian Kingdom, they have some how managed to produce themselves as genetically Western Europeans.

I have since writing above, searched through them all to see how many are like that, and it is King and Duke, and a couple of counts. However, I managed to find a count who is 'Black' and guess what... he wasn't Ethiopian, he was German.

**Monk** · 02-21-2013, 05:04

Originally Posted by Tiaexz

A quick modding could push the date back further, though the army stacks will really get large then. A fully upgraded county will rival a starting countries army.

I have noticed the weirdest thing in my game, 'White Ethiopians'. Due to some marriage choices and things of the Abyssinian Kingdom, they have some how managed to produce themselves as genetically Western Europeans.

I have since writing above, searched through them all to see how many are like that, and it is King and Duke, and a couple of counts. However, I managed to find a count who is 'Black' and guess what... he wasn't Ethiopian, he was German.

I once saw an Ethiopian Holy Roman Emperor and a russian Queen of England.. in separate games, of course! It's very rare, but that kind of radical shift is pretty humorous to see.