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  1. #1
    Member Member Ishmael's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Yikes. I've been playing a game in Spain and the British Isles (I swapped to an Irish count of my dynasty once I became Emperor of Hispania), and so hadn't really given much thought to the Hordes, especially after they both near-simultaneously converted to Nestorianism. However, whilst idly browsing the 'independent realms' ledger I noticed the Ikkhanate has a 250 thousand strong army, with the Golden Horde having another 150 thousand. I'm thinking once I've fully united Britain I'll switch to the fairly powerful Kingdom of Greece (also of my dynasty) and see if I can take them on. Are their troops still resistant to attrition after they convert?

  2. #2
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
    Yikes. I've been playing a game in Spain and the British Isles (I swapped to an Irish count of my dynasty once I became Emperor of Hispania), and so hadn't really given much thought to the Hordes, especially after they both near-simultaneously converted to Nestorianism. However, whilst idly browsing the 'independent realms' ledger I noticed the Ikkhanate has a 250 thousand strong army, with the Golden Horde having another 150 thousand. I'm thinking once I've fully united Britain I'll switch to the fairly powerful Kingdom of Greece (also of my dynasty) and see if I can take them on. Are their troops still resistant to attrition after they convert?
    Wow, what? That can't all be doomstacks... how big are the hordes in your world? Show us a screenshot!

    edit: As far as I know, once the horde converts they can still use their doomstacks (and yes they are attrition proof) but they lose the ability to call their powerful invasions. They are forced to use the claim system or fight holy wars for single duchies at a time.

    Fortunately, if they are powerful and have large areas of land, those numbers you are seeing might be coming from more traditional levy and retinue caps which do suffer attrition.
    Last edited by Monk; 02-20-2013 at 02:04.

  3. #3
    Member Member Ishmael's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Wow, what? That can't all be doomstacks... how big are the hordes in your world? Show us a screenshot!

    edit: As far as I know, once the horde converts they can still use their doomstacks (and yes they are attrition proof) but they lose the ability to call their powerful invasions. They are forced to use the claim system or fight holy wars for single duchies at a time.

    Fortunately, if they are powerful and have large areas of land, those numbers you are seeing might be coming from more traditional levy and retinue caps which do suffer attrition.
    This is my first game that's lasted until the hordes arrived, and it's proved to be pretty interesting:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I started as Castille, and managed to unite Spain (except for a chunk on the east coast owned by Pisa). In the process, I managed to put a ruler of my dynasty on the throne of Sicily and Greece, both of which were won in crusades. Sicily started out strong, taking most of the land in North Africa that Greece currently owns, but lost the majority of it's territory to Greece through inter-realm inheritance and a few wars. Greece went surprisingly well considering that their founding ruler was an imbecile, but with only a little support from Spain they managed to carve out a fair chunk of territory. I don't think they've ever been allied to the Byzantine Empire, but together they managed to break the backs of the Muslim powers before the Hordes arrived (which contributed greatly to the success of the Ilkhanate). Islam is now practically extinct in Europe.

    Nothing particularly exciting had been happening in the rest of the world. France had been a powerhouse for about one hundred years (being a very helpful ally of Castille when it was first growing), but now is a patchwork of independent states. The HRE has stood strong throughout, expanding into Norway and Finland. Unfortunately they were struck by their first major civil war just as their allies the Cumans (who had united all of Russia and fielded about 80000 levies) were attacked by the Golden Horde, which ended poorly for them. The Pope launched a crusade to retake Poland, but as the HRE did not deign to take part it failed miserably. However, somewhat miraculously both the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate converted nigh-simultaneously to Nestorianism about 30 years ago, and since then their borders have been frozen pretty much in their current locations.

    Current plans are to finish up with unifying Britain, then I'll swap over to Greece, take out the Byzantine Empire and defeat the Ilkhanate somehow. Easy, right?

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  4. #4
    The Bad Doctor Senior Member Chaotix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    That's quite a campaign plan.

    Think you can do all of it in just 140 years?

    And 250k levies is actually not ridiculous for ~1300 (~1200, when the Mongols arrive, is really stretching it though). Impressive for a computer-controlled nation though, usually I only see the Fatimids/Seljuks, or maybe HRE or Byz get to be that big. I guess it makes sense with the Mongols.
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  5. #5
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
    This is my first game that's lasted until the hordes arrived, and it's proved to be pretty interesting:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I started as Castille, and managed to unite Spain (except for a chunk on the east coast owned by Pisa). In the process, I managed to put a ruler of my dynasty on the throne of Sicily and Greece, both of which were won in crusades. Sicily started out strong, taking most of the land in North Africa that Greece currently owns, but lost the majority of it's territory to Greece through inter-realm inheritance and a few wars. Greece went surprisingly well considering that their founding ruler was an imbecile, but with only a little support from Spain they managed to carve out a fair chunk of territory. I don't think they've ever been allied to the Byzantine Empire, but together they managed to break the backs of the Muslim powers before the Hordes arrived (which contributed greatly to the success of the Ilkhanate). Islam is now practically extinct in Europe.

    Nothing particularly exciting had been happening in the rest of the world. France had been a powerhouse for about one hundred years (being a very helpful ally of Castille when it was first growing), but now is a patchwork of independent states. The HRE has stood strong throughout, expanding into Norway and Finland. Unfortunately they were struck by their first major civil war just as their allies the Cumans (who had united all of Russia and fielded about 80000 levies) were attacked by the Golden Horde, which ended poorly for them. The Pope launched a crusade to retake Poland, but as the HRE did not deign to take part it failed miserably. However, somewhat miraculously both the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate converted nigh-simultaneously to Nestorianism about 30 years ago, and since then their borders have been frozen pretty much in their current locations.

    Current plans are to finish up with unifying Britain, then I'll swap over to Greece, take out the Byzantine Empire and defeat the Ilkhanate somehow. Easy, right?
    Incredible. I've never seen such an even split between religions so late in the game. Muslim religions are almost gone and the hordes picked Nestorian of all things to convert to? Talk about random... I love it! The hordes won't be getting any more reinforcement stacks, that's for sure. Not only because it's passed 1300 but also because they converted. And since the Il-Khanate has some of the most prosperous lands in the game (those persian provinces are incredible troop producers) I wouldn't be surprised if more than a large part of that troop count came from levies.

    Your world is divided between east and west with nigh perfect religion borders. A fragmented west facing off against a unified East. You've got a monumental task ahead of you but I gotta admit, I'm a little envious. That's gonna be all sorts of fun.

    The Timurids will be coming sometime after 1360 and represent the "final boss" of the campaign. Timur will be striking the Il-Khanate through Khiva. Time your initial strikes to coincide with his advance. His vanguards should put a serious dent into any remaining doomstacks the Il-Khanate may have and may give you a powerful opening to begin your bloody work.

    And remember. The timer runs out at 1453. Good luck

  6. #6
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    A quick modding could push the date back further, though the army stacks will really get large then. A fully upgraded county will rival a starting countries army.

    I have noticed the weirdest thing in my game, 'White Ethiopians'. Due to some marriage choices and things of the Abyssinian Kingdom, they have some how managed to produce themselves as genetically Western Europeans.

    I have since writing above, searched through them all to see how many are like that, and it is King and Duke, and a couple of counts. However, I managed to find a count who is 'Black' and guess what... he wasn't Ethiopian, he was German.
    Last edited by Beskar; 02-20-2013 at 15:38.
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  7. #7
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    A quick modding could push the date back further, though the army stacks will really get large then. A fully upgraded county will rival a starting countries army.

    I have noticed the weirdest thing in my game, 'White Ethiopians'. Due to some marriage choices and things of the Abyssinian Kingdom, they have some how managed to produce themselves as genetically Western Europeans.

    I have since writing above, searched through them all to see how many are like that, and it is King and Duke, and a couple of counts. However, I managed to find a count who is 'Black' and guess what... he wasn't Ethiopian, he was German.
    I once saw an Ethiopian Holy Roman Emperor and a russian Queen of England.. in separate games, of course! It's very rare, but that kind of radical shift is pretty humorous to see.

  8. #8
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    In the last few rounds of testing for my mod I played a lot as Aragon to see if I could turn the single county kingdom into a power. It's probably my favorite start and the best way I've found to measure the balance of that region, and it lets me test some of my more wild ideas like female commanders in a real way. It always proves to be one of the more challenging things to do and I don't always succeed, but I usually have fun.

    I've never actually hated this game before. That was before I was locked in a bitter struggle for freedom against a numerically superior Almoravid Sultanate, launching an invasion of my kingdom...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    1086. Winter. After twenty bloody years of unification the kingdom of Aragon was taking shape at long last. From the meager province of Alto Aragon it had grown to encompass much of the northern eastern counties. Having been at war for nearly twenty straight years under its Crusader Queen Maria 'The Lion' de Murcia the kingdom desperately needed a time of peace to consolidate it's power and establish firm hold over the lands it had conquered, but no such luck.

    In 1086 after having watched for twenty years while Aragon broke and defeated each Muslim county one by oine in the north the powerful Almoravid Sultanate in the south launched an invasion, determined to put down the new upstart kingdom and outflank the battered Kingdom of Castile in one fell swoop. With the death of the late Castillian king only a few short years before the old alliances forged two decades prior were dead. Aragon stood alone against the terrible menace at her borders.. or did it? A rider appeared on the horizon at the 11th hour, just as the Aragonese marshaled their forces.



    The Regent of Castile, with full support of the child king sent an envoy pledging their support in defense of the Aragonese throne. Queen Maria pulled her forces back to the river Alagon, near the village of Frades de la Sierra to await reinforcements. It would be there the fate of her kingdom would be decided.



    Aragon's forces were tired and exhausted after countless seasons spent campaigning, bringing new countiess into the fold. But they were a proud band, not one among them doubted their conviction.



    The fighting was savage and desperate as the Sultan of the Almoravids himself led the center against the combined strength of the northern kingdoms. Both sides refused to give way as fighting is said to have lasted for as long as two weeks. Each day beginning with a new charge, and each night ending with the counting of the dead. The rivers ran red in those long bloody weeks, but through great sacrifice and loss, the battle was won and the northern Christians claimed victory. The Sultan fell back to Albarracin county and dug in. The Aragonese and Castilians, swelled with pride and confidence, followed them in their retreat. But the north's forces were heavily disorganized after the Battle of the Alagon, it's suspected Christian forces suffered as deep as 60% casualties in the battle despite their victory.

    The follow up battle proved disastrous and saw the destruction of the allied northern army. Immediately in response to the defeat, a powerful faction backing a pretender to the Castilian throne rose up in open revolt, challenging the regency of the child king. Castile withdrew her battle weary survivors and returned home to deal with the insurrection, leaving Aragon well and truly alone.

    For two years the southern counties were ravaged by the victorious armies of the Sultan as they pressed their advantage. The warchests were empty and hope seemed to dim. There were no more soldiers to fight the war, and no money to finance a new campaign even if their were. It was then, when all expectations of victory had faded that a messenger arrived from the Pope. In His Holiness' infinite wisdom, he had observed the ongoing conflict and had sent his envoys to convey his full support. The gesture was largely symbolic, but the chests of gold the envoy delivered were far more than that. The wealth was more than enough to scrape together a counter-attack and drive the Muslim forces out of Aragon once and for all!



    The armies clashed in Zaragoza, the forces of the Aragonese backed by substantial mercenary troops (with some coming as far as Ireland to take part in the campaign) attacked the Sultanate and his forces, who by now were laden with the riches stolen from the provinces of the south. The attack was fierce and halted the Sultanate's powerful advance, stomping cold his push into the north and crushing his army. It was the first major victory in over two years for Christian forces. The mercenary troops continued south and liberated the occupied county of Albarracin. Unfortunately, that is where the campaign had to draw to a close. Unable to support the expensive cost of so many professional soldiers the Aragonese delivered the last payments to the troops who had fought for them and brought an end to their contracts.

    For 18 months the borders of the two belligerent realms were quiet. Castile still struggled against the pretender in the west and so were no threat to anyone, in the meantime however, the Sultanate and Aragon continued desperate attempts to rebuild. Whichever kingdom could come up with either the manpower, or the wealth, to support one last campaign would be the victor of the conflict..

    Unfortunately for the north that was the Sultanate. Marshaling a powerful force of over 6,000 me the Sultan returned with renewed purpose and smashed the Aragonese defense at the Third Battle of Albarracin. Worse still the defeat cost the Kingdom of Aragon it's most powerful warleader, the Lion of Aragon herself, Maria de Murcia.

    Broken, leaderless, and with little hope for victory, the Kingdom of Aragon passed to Ramiro II, son of the late Maria and thought to be one of the greatest military minds of his generation. The Sultan was swelled in confidence as he marched further north and entered the mountainous county of Alto-Aragon. It was there that he encountered a rebuilt and strong army, hardened by almost a half decade of war. The army was not of Aragon, but of Castile, who had finally put down their rebellion and returned to the battlefields in the east. Ramiro II in command of only a small retinue of his own men, took control of the allied effort and smashed the Muslim advance. His victory officially marks the turning point in the war, outnumbered 3 to 1, Ramiro's victory is a battle that military scholars studied endlessly for centuries afterward

    But even with the great victory Ramiro faced an empty treasury and an inability to go on the attack. There just wasn't enough money or men to propel the war machine forward. Was it luck, or was it fate that then intervened? It's hard to say, but shortly after the bloody battle in the northern mountains an envoy from the Venetian dodge arrived, carrying with them great chests of gold! They wished to open new markets on the shores of Aragon and hoped that they money would serve as an incentive for the great King Ramiro to permit such things. Ramiro welcomed the foreign merchants with opened arms. The following year, the beleaguered northern forces launched the final counter attack of the war and completely ruined the Sultan's dreams of pacifying the Kingdom of Aragon. The veterans of the Battle of Alto-Aragon, backed by mercenaries bought with Venetian gold, were far too much for the weary Almoravid troops. Eight years after the outbreak of hostilities the great Sultan of the Almoravids conceded defeat and the invasion was officially brought to a close.

    It would be the beginning of the end for Muslim dominance of the Western Mediterranean. Ramiro II moved quickly, cementing his alliance with a marriage of the Castilian King to his sister. The union would last and as each Kingdom fully supported the other through the coming decades, as one power grew, so too did another. With the powerful alliance at home, Ramiro further increased his power by remembering his Venetian allies. In 1106 he expelled all Geonese traders from his lands, opening the way for Venice to claim dominance of the trade in eastern Iberia. Back by the Venetian Doge abroad and supported by his brother-in-law in Castile, Ramiro oversaw the greatest military expansion of the Kingdom in its history. Surpassing that of even his mother's reign, his wars would make Aragon well and truly whole.

    In 1120 after decades of continued war, a powerful Kingdom of Aragon (now fully in control of Valencia, Barcelona and all of de jure Aragon) claimed victory in a papal sponsored Crusade for Sicily, extending the power of the court of Aragon as far as the boot of Italy.





    Or maybe I love to hate it! I don't know which, one of the two for sure.
    Last edited by Monk; 03-07-2013 at 01:38.

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