Pahlava Nightmare

[SelSel]

Hey guys, I've recently started playing EB.

Loving it so far, it's really has a lot of options and I like the vastness of things.

One thing has bothered me though. Missile Cavalry seems to be INCREDIBLY strong, it's not even cost/power related. They wreck any army they're facing and even if they lose, the "winner" will have a Pyrrhic on his hands. What do I need to edit to tone them down? It's really killing my Baktria/Seleucid campaigns atm.

And yes, I tried missile cavalry vs missile cavalry and then pin them down with cav, follow up with spearmen. But as mentioned before I take too high losses and they just keep sending in reinforcements like it's nothing.

[Brennus]

Hi SelSel and welcome!

I am currently playing an Arche Seleukia game and having trouble with the Pahlava. My advice is let your phalanxes take the punishment from Pahlava horse archers, even the levy phalanxes manage well if your face their horse archers front on. Once they have depleted their arrows move in for the kill with your family members (even though your cavalry is slower you will be able to catch them as they will have tired themselves out shooting arrows). With the exception of a few late Pahlavan cavalry units your Hetaroi are capable of slaughtering pretty much any Pahlavan horse archer.

[SelSel]

Hi SelSel and welcome!

I am currently playing an Arche Seleukia game and having trouble with the Pahlava. My advice is let your phalanxes take the punishment from Pahlava horse archers, even the levy phalanxes manage well if your face their horse archers front on. Once they have depleted their arrows move in for the kill with your family members (even though your cavalry is slower you will be able to catch them as they will have tired themselves out shooting arrows). With the exception of a few late Pahlavan cavalry units your Hetaroi are capable of slaughtering pretty much any Pahlavan horse archer.

Thanks for the welcome!

I noticed my family members cav are really beasting the battlefield. I'll try to use em more, I was always a bit reserved because I don't want to sacrifice them too much.

Also, can I fight fire with fire in this case? Shall I build a mobile army to fight the equally mobile armies? There's some settlements nearby who let me churn out my own hellenic missile cavalry. I only used pre-built missily cav (prob persian or something) and they were decent at best. How are hellenic missile cavalry against pahlava missile cavalry?

[Gorbag]

I Would recommend you use a large number of persian archer-spearmen. They have resonable range and spears to protect against a cavalry charge, they also outnumber horsearchers. Also mercenary horsearchers are useful if you have the money and havent developed the necessary barracks to recruit them from your settlements.

[athanaric]

Try Thanvare Pârsig (the heavy Persian foot archers). They are pretty powerful in missile exchanges.

There's some settlements nearby who let me churn out my own hellenic missile cavalry. I only used pre-built missily cav (prob persian or something) and they were decent at best.

They are actually excellent, you may have been using them wrong or in insufficient numbers.

How are hellenic missile cavalry against pahlava missile cavalry?

Depends on what you mean. If you mean Hippakontistai, forget them. They aren't bad but their various Iranian counterparts are better - and mounted javelinmen usually aren't that effective vs HAs, because they get mowed down so fast while not being able to retaliate. If you are referring to Baktrian horse archers, they're good because they can take quite some punishment, which is important in missile "duels". They can also be used to help your lancers fight enemy cavalry in close combat. Their drawbacks are that their bows are inferior in terms of range to those of nomadic HAs and that they don't have very high stamina.

[Kromulan]

Pahlava horse archers are awesome. As Brennus said, try to keep phalanxes facing them (and closest so they'll be target). Also, some of the eastern (foot) archers can outrange the HA's and cause some casualties... HA can move and shoot, while foot archers can't, so chasing them can get costly. If the enemy army is heavy in unarmored HA, you can do a lot of good just putting your foot archers on auto-fire and relying on their range and number advantages.
Also, if you can fight them in their cities, you negate their mobility advantage... game over.
Basically, do what Brennus said and add this in as you see fit.

[SelSel]

Thank you so much guys! Going to try switch things around and show those Pahlava they can't mess with me! (Or we hope so :D)

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

Slingers. My GP told be that egg-sized lead bullets at high velocities are generally bad for health.

[SelSel]

Also, if you can fight them in their cities, you negate their mobility advantage... game over.

So true, I defended a hold of mine with just 4 native phalanxes against a huge force of riders. Chokepoints ...!

Anyway, the campaign (Arche Seleukeia) is going much better now. I took back some settlements including Asaak and I intend to increase defenses and handle the Ptolemaioi (And I think Pontus wants trouble) before I fight the Pahlava again. Thanks again, guys!

[Ibrahim]

I don't dare fight them in the open. just huddle in my cities, with lots of archers and slingers, and try to mow down as much as possible.

[Stark]

On defense get stone walls as fast as possible. One phalangitai to guard gate just in case, archers to burn rams and some Pantadopoi to guard walls against Pahlava infantry (who are awfull).

On offense, attack their cities, don't try to fight then in the field.

[panten]

For field battles: Phalanxes to take a beating, Persian Heavy Archers or Persian Archer-Spearmen to counter light HA, get Dahae Skirmisher Cavalry as soon as you have the provinces (the one next to Bactria should be sufficent if you kept it (Antiocheia-Margiana iirc) they work wonders in a close support role against well armoured riders Pahlava or the Saka can deploy, as long as you are able to shield them from arrows. Alternatively you can use Eastern Axemen/Hyrkanian Axemen etc. but they are slower and not too effective against mobile, arrow spitting enemies, Dahae Riders are also a great addition to your field army, they are mobile, can exchange volleys with other HA and support any charge your heavy cavalry does.

Don't be afraid, retaliate! ;)

[The Stranger]

hire more horse archers.

[Brennus]

So true, I defended a hold of mine with just 4 native phalanxes against a huge force of riders. Chokepoints ...!

Anyway, the campaign (Arche Seleukeia) is going much better now. I took back some settlements including Asaak and I intend to increase defenses and handle the Ptolemaioi (And I think Pontus wants trouble) before I fight the Pahlava again. Thanks again, guys!

My advice is try and knock the Ptolemaioi out as soon as you can. Even if you lose large numbers of cities to the Pahlava they are quite easy to role back (HA are terrible garrison troops), the Ptolemaioi are a different case, they are stubborn. Commit the lions share of your resources to taking Egypt before you have to face full stacks of elite Ptolemaic phalangites.

Also don't be afraid of using your FMs, as the Seleucids you have alot of them and some of them are not too good in administrative or command positions. Also your FM cavalry replenishes itself without the need to be re-trained.

[Nirvanish]

While it could be considered an exploit I have heard of people baiting horse archer armies into garrisoning forts. If you can achieve that you now have a nearly stationary horse archer army to deal with. Also you could always rp it as greedy nomads being duped into raiding a false army camp.

[Klemens]

There are a couple of ways to defeat a nomadic horse archer army, but it requires a lighter, composite army that's flexible and contains artillery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jaxartes

You can hold a hill with archers, or use artillery to out range the bow and arrows. Light cavalry is mince meat for horse cavalry but cataphract like units are much better and I'm pretty sure can even fight off horse archers if exhausted. I'm not sure if in the total war engine you can use ballistas to massacre horse archers from a distance, but if you can - that's the tactic to use for a western army.

I personally don't believe that you should resort to defensive siege warfare to defeat horse archers, or offensive siege warfare for that matter.

[Nightmare]

Personally-speaking, I never counter horse archers with horse archers (even if I play a horse archer faction myself). I always counter them with foot archers. That's what I recommend doing in your case, just be aware that hellenic foot archers kinda suck, so you might want to use another type.

[Brennus]

There are a couple of ways to defeat a nomadic horse archer army, but it requires a lighter, composite army that's flexible and contains artillery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jaxartes

You can hold a hill with archers, or use artillery to out range the bow and arrows. Light cavalry is mince meat for horse cavalry but cataphract like units are much better and I'm pretty sure can even fight off horse archers if exhausted. I'm not sure if in the total war engine you can use ballistas to massacre horse archers from a distance, but if you can - that's the tactic to use for a western army.

I personally don't believe that you should resort to defensive siege warfare to defeat horse archers, or offensive siege warfare for that matter.

The artillery available in EB is too expensive, slow and innacurate for fighting horse archer armies i'm afraid.

[Myth]

Autocalc, autocalc, autocalc.

[SelSel]

Autocalc, autocalc, autocalc.

I kept losing those, really badly. :P

It was worth more fighting those myself.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

The artillery available in EB is too expensive, slow and innacurate for fighting horse archer armies i'm afraid.

Even against cataphract-style FM's?

[Brennus]

Even against cataphract-style FM's?

We must be using different artillery :p What are you thinking ok?

[Ca Putt]

Well the lowest level ones are ample against The really heavy dudes if you have something to keep them apart^^ However I don't think you could call them cost effective in any way, afterall they slow down your armies on the Campaign map.

[seleucid empire]

i use an army of 9 levy phalangites and 1 fm and 10 normal perisan archers. that seems to work really well. another variant is 9 phalangites, 1 fm and 10 horsearchers. in my latest arche campaign, i used a balanced army of semi elites and 3 unit of cretan archers and 2 units of syrian archers which took the east in about 10 years