The Counter-Jihad goes full fascist - like we didn't know that before.

[HoreTore]

They've always denied the obvious...

"No no, we're not fascists, we're just critical of Islam! Stop pestering my with your PC!!!"

Well, Gates of Vienna made it official last week, by posting and stickying an open call for a fascist oligarchy. The only change from the past is that they have swapped "Strong manly virtue" with "high IQ".

The weak masses should be controlled by their stronger superiors. We should have less democracy and free speech, not more!! Of particular hilarity is the call for banning voodoo. Which kinda proves which side of the IQ-metre the author is on. I have a feeling he wont be doing many decisions in his ideal society....

Is this openness a sign of a new direction, though? Will the racist blogosphere turn into an openly fascist blogosphere? Or will they continue going into a fit whenever someone points out the blindingly obvious term on their movement?

[rory_20_uk]

Rather amusingly, you are lumping what is probably a rather diverse grouping of individuals into one amorphous mass - the Black Panthers alongside the KKK.

[Fragony]

http://zorgvraag.info/wp-content/upl...2/oxazepam.jpg

^

[HoreTore]

Rather amusingly, you are lumping what is probably a rather diverse grouping of individuals into one amorphous mass - the Black Panthers alongside the KKK.

I am lumping the contributors to a specific blog, Gates of Vienna, into one mass. That does not seem like that big a stretch to me. Given the lack of any critical comment whatsoever(the only criticism was a theological debate on the nature of Christianity which I found utterly boring), I am inclined to lump their readers into the mass as well.

Given that Gates of Vienna is a pretty big and forceful blog in the not-racist underground, I am asking the question of whether others will follow suit, dump the charade and openly declare themselves as fascists now. That remains to be seen.

[Fragony]

The funny thing about facism is that you can see it everwhere without recognising it

[rory_20_uk]

Apologies. I did not realise that you were referring purely to a group who I take from the Blog's title to be pretty homogeneous. From as much of the blog post that I read there is a strong racial element, although interestingly it seems Jews and Christians are fine, it is broadly speaking everything and everyone else.

The comments are also pre-approved, so any that do not agree with the owner will be binned anyway - hence I much prefer this site where there is a reactive censorship for those that infringe the rules.

"Culture is ending, the polite, old white crowd that savors Bach at the Frauenkirche or Velasquez at the Prado having neither the courage nor the vigor to stop the barbarization of its former domains. The future is writ as the torture of the children of Grieg with the barbarians’ Dika Down Booboo! or their mega-decibel Adhan; the Booboo-Muslim-Morlock crowd multiplying and living off white Eloi’s taxes under Leviathan’s special care"

Strange man...

[HoreTore]

The comments are also pre-approved, so any that do not agree with the owner will be binned anyway - hence I much prefer this site where there is a reactive censorship for those that infringe the rules.

The comments are pre-approved, but to my knowledge that is only to prevent spam and such. I've posted a couple of times, and my comments have gotten through just fine....

Strange man...

Indeed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

They've always denied the obvious...

"No no, we're not fascists, we're just critical of Islam! Stop pestering my with your PC!!!"

Well, Gates of Vienna made it official last week, by posting and stickying an open call for a fascist oligarchy. The only change from the past is that they have swapped "Strong manly virtue" with "high IQ".

The weak masses should be controlled by their stronger superiors. We should have less democracy and free speech, not more!! Of particular hilarity is the call for banning voodoo. Which kinda proves which side of the IQ-metre the author is on. I have a feeling he wont be doing many decisions in his ideal society....

Is this openness a sign of a new direction, though? Will the racist blogosphere turn into an openly fascist blogosphere? Or will they continue going into a fit whenever someone points out the blindingly obvious term on their movement?

Before you get too hearty in your demonisation, the bolded also perfectly describes the EU! All you have to do is replace "stronger" with "more enlightened" and it is a perfect fit for what is being said by Germany, and Germans, about Southern Europe - and that also has a racial element too it.

Reactionary racial steryotyping is the result of straightened economic situations, which is why we now see it on both right and left. It's a result of the In Group attacking the Out Group.

[Kralizec]

and it is a perfect fit for what is being said by Germany, and Germans, about Southern Europe - and that also has a racial element too it.

What?

[Lemur]

the Booboo-Muslim-Morlock crowd multiplying and living off white Eloi’s taxes under Leviathan’s special care

As fond as I am of Morlock/Eloi references, you can't go mixing in Leviathan when you're in the middle of a Time Machine riff. No mixing H. G. Wells and Thomas Hobbes; that's just wrong.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What?

Well, those Greeks deserve everything they get, right? They're corrupt, and they elect corrupt politicians, so maybe they're stupid too? If only they could practice German fiscal dicipline, but we don't trust them to do that, so we'll grind them down as low as possible before giving them a loan with punitive interest rates.

Give me a break.

What is happening in the Eurozone is being cast as Northern Dicipline vs Southern immorality (because debt is immoral). It's a Germanic Protestant narrative that ignores the basic structural failure of the Euro, thank God the Left-leaning press is waking up over here, at least.

[Kralizec]

Nice attempt at changing the subject, this is not Furunculus' euro thread. I find your insinuation that there are racist sentiments in the way Germany and others are treating Greece incredibly insulting, even more so because it's so subtle.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The big difference being, however, that the Protestant morality play has nothing whatsoever to do with racism and everything with Germany and others refusing point blank to cover the bill, again, while at the same time France and Germany are insisting that Greece must remain part of the euro. These are mutually exclusive unless the Greeks suddenly pay up after all.

Still, the key here is that it really is a Greek option to call it quits but so far their politicians haven't had the guts to do that either. They've professed as have the Germans/French that a break from the euro is impossible, and hence the Greeks continue to pay their bills through convoluted “bail out” schemes. The talk about it being impossible to do is, just that, talk: neither France/Germany nor Greece officially wants Greece to exit the euro, they're just trying to hang on to it for as long as possible. If either party wanted that, the hands would've been forced and the matter concluded months ago.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Nice attempt at changing the subject, this is not Furunculus' euro thread. I find your insinuation that there are racist sentiments in the way Germany and others are treating Greece incredibly insulting, even more so because it's so subtle.

It's Gaelic Cowboy's Euro thread, actually, and I'm not being at all subtle.

I'll be explicit: The punishment being inflicted on the Greeks is not just about a futile attempt to preserve the status quo, an impossible feat in any case. No, this is about a prejudice for "feckless Greeks", the belief that the Greek people are at fault for the graft and corruption in their political system and therefore should suffer for it.

The alternative narrative is that the Left-leaning European establishment, and by British standards the European Establishment lacks a Right-leaning element entirely, is pathologically heartless.

The fact is, hammering the Greeks plays well in Germany, and the Netherlands, as the does taking away fiscal soverignty from those percieved not to deserve it, political children if you like.

The big difference being, however, that the Protestant morality play has nothing whatsoever to do with racism and everything with Germany and others refusing point blank to cover the bill, again, while at the same time France and Germany are insisting that Greece must remain part of the euro. These are mutually exclusive unless the Greeks suddenly pay up after all.

Still, the key here is that it really is a Greek option to call it quits but so far their politicians haven't had the guts to do that either. They've professed as have the Germans/French that a break from the euro is impossible, and hence the Greeks continue to pay their bills through convoluted “bail out” schemes. The talk about it being impossible to do is, just that, talk: neither France/Germany nor Greece officially wants Greece to exit the euro, they're just trying to hang on to it for as long as possible. If either party wanted that, the hands would've been forced and the matter concluded months ago.

France and Germany want Greece to default and exit at this point, because the alternative is to provide Greece unlimited credit with low interest rates for the next several decades. Otherwise, Greece's economy will continue to shrink, because sensible spending decisions cannot be made while credit is withheld based on cuts which are, frankly, absurd in scale.

A 22% cut to the minimum wage? Bear in mind the Greek state has already been cutting wages back for the past two years, and it has built up a huge public sector economy which is intertwined with the whole country, cutting back on that will produce the same result as cutting back subsidies for the Noth of england under Thatcher. Long term decline, followed by stagnation and a "recovery" itself fuelled by the State and precious little else.

What Greece needed two years, as I believe I said at the the time and Adrian shouted at me for, was to exit the Euro and THEN recieve a bailout once it had defaulted on its debts and cleared its balance sheet.

[Kralizec]

It's Gaelic Cowboy's Euro thread, actually, and I'm not being at all subtle.

I'll be explicit: The punishment being inflicted on the Greeks is not just about a futile attempt to preserve the status quo, an impossible feat in any case. No, this is about a prejudice for "feckless Greeks", the belief that the Greek people are at fault for the graft and corruption in their political system and therefore should suffer for it.

I do actually believe that the Greeks are responsible. Individuals can't be blamed, but a nation's people, as a collective, is responsible for what their elected government does. Therefore the people of Iceland should be expected to pay for their bloated, failed banking system and the Greeks should pay the price for electing pork-barrel governments for the last 3 decades.

The alternative narrative is that the Left-leaning European establishment, and by British standards the European Establishment lacks a Right-leaning element entirely, is pathologically heartless.

The fact is, hammering the Greeks plays well in Germany, and the Netherlands, as the does taking away fiscal soverignty from those percieved not to deserve it, political children if you like.

You seem to be under the misguided impression that hammering at the Greeks is an exclusively leftist hobby. Maybe that's the case in your country, but it's not in mine, nor in Germany. And I still don't see what any of this has to do with racism.

[rory_20_uk]

Greeks retire at 55.
They get paid a salary for 14 months of the year. Their civil service is massive and inefficient.
They are still less productive than Germany.
Their democratically elected leaders lied to get into the Euro, involving some wizardry courtesy of Goldman Sachs.
Countries such as Slovakia are wondering why they should have to finance a country that is richer than they are.
Countries such as Germany wonder why they have to work something like a further 12 years after the Greeks stop.

To try to play the racism card, you must therefore think that if Denmark was doing exactly the same thing everyone would go "what a shame, here's loads of free money - chin up!" No one signed up for the Euro to be a cuddly institution to help wayward countries whose leaders and peoples just can't seem to pay taxes or have any economic function, bless 'em and hence require vast subsidies from everyone else.

If one were suggesting giving Nigeria £100 Billion one would be considered mad. Yet, their growth is positive, they produce something of value. Greece manages to shrink by 7% in 3 months (illusory growth gained from the EU gravy train previously) and still we pile the money in.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I do actually believe that the Greeks are responsible. Individuals can't be blamed, but a nation's people, as a collective, is responsible for what their elected government does. Therefore the people of Iceland should be expected to pay for their bloated, failed banking system and the Greeks should pay the price for electing pork-barrel governments for the last 3 decades.




You seem to be under the misguided impression that hammering at the Greeks is an exclusively leftist hobby. Maybe that's the case in your country, but it's not in mine, nor in Germany. And I still don't see what any of this has to do with racism.

The Greeks can't pay, so hammering them is pointless. Claiming that "the Greeks" are responsible is also fallacious, just as claiming the UK's position in Europe is our collective "fault". The people vote for the available parties, and in Greek politics as much as anywhere you need money to be a politician.

Greeks retire at 55.
They get paid a salary for 14 months of the year. Their civil service is massive and inefficient.
They are still less productive than Germany.
Their democratically elected leaders lied to get into the Euro, involving some wizardry courtesy of Goldman Sachs.
Countries such as Slovakia are wondering why they should have to finance a country that is richer than they are.
Countries such as Germany wonder why they have to work something like a further 12 years after the Greeks stop.

To try to play the racism card, you must therefore think that if Denmark was doing exactly the same thing everyone would go "what a shame, here's loads of free money - chin up!" No one signed up for the Euro to be a cuddly institution to help wayward countries whose leaders and peoples just can't seem to pay taxes or have any economic function, bless 'em and hence require vast subsidies from everyone else.

If one were suggesting giving Nigeria £100 Billion one would be considered mad. Yet, their growth is positive, they produce something of value. Greece manages to shrink by 7% in 3 months (illusory growth gained from the EU gravy train previously) and still we pile the money in.

Right, the general Greek populace works a 42 hour week, and though they can retire and draw a pension at 55 most have to keep working because that pension doesn't amount to much. Further, while tax evasion is endemic, it is only so for those able to afford the accountants and the bribes. Those people are still getting rich, the general populace are being hammered.

This is war reparations from Germany all over again.

You want to punish them? Fine. Demand the resignation of all the main political party leaders and the holding of immidiate elections with full UN oversight as well as the publishing the goverment accounts, including a breakdown of defence and infastructure sepnding.

Then, give Greece a low cost loan to fix their infastructure and survive the bang from exiting EMU.

[rory_20_uk]

Years of work to earn a full pension; Greece: 35 Germany: 45
Proportion of wages as pension; Greece: 80% Germany: 46%
Number of pension payments a year; Greece: 14 Germany: 12
Minimum payment; Greece: €450 Germany: €600
Maximum Payment; Greece: €2538 Germany: €2100

They might need to go on working, but less than Germany. The Germans do manage to pay for their pensions.

Punish for punishment sake? No I agree that's pointless. In WW1 culpability was on all sides. Here the blame falls more on Greece alone. Their entire finances should be internationally reviewed for starters, and definitely penalties for the leaders. National assets should be used as collateral for the loans for a long time. Not impossible loans, but loans against most assets that the state currently has. We could even take offshore rights and airspace.

They've stopped being a country in any meaningful sense of the word. Like teenagers, they appear to be refusing to see how independence is directly linked to fiscal responsibility.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Years of work to earn a full pension; Greece: 35 Germany: 45
Proportion of wages as pension; Greece: 80% Germany: 46%
Number of pension payments a year; Greece: 14 Germany: 12
Minimum payment; Greece: €450 Germany: €600
Maximum Payment; Greece: €2538 Germany: €2100

They might need to go on working, but less than Germany. The Germans do manage to pay for their pensions.

Punish for punishment sake? No I agree that's pointless. In WW1 culpability was on all sides. Here the blame falls more on Greece alone. Their entire finances should be internationally reviewed for starters, and definitely penalties for the leaders. National assets should be used as collateral for the loans for a long time. Not impossible loans, but loans against most assets that the state currently has. We could even take offshore rights and airspace.

They've stopped being a country in any meaningful sense of the word. Like teenagers, they appear to be refusing to see how independence is directly linked to fiscal responsibility.

Ultimate blame for the Greek situation lies with Germany and the architechts of EMU, because Portugal, Ireland and Italy are all going through the same thing - and here's where I detect the whiff of prejudice, Greece gets it in the neck much more than Ireland, and is being asked to make much bigger cuts. The fact is, a large portion of the Greek defecit at this point is about loan repayments.

[rory_20_uk]

No one forced anyone into anything. We're dealing with countries here, who are not supposed to walk into scams.

When I was 18 I was offered a Platinum credit card with a limit of £25k. I had no job. I chose not to take it. Not only did Greece decide to take something that was worse than this, but also lied on the form to become a member.

[rory_20_uk]

Double post...

[spankythehippo]

Whoa, double post.

Well, those Greeks deserve everything they get, right? They're corrupt, and they elect corrupt politicians, so maybe they're stupid too?

Blaming an entire demographic for the actions of corrupt politicians? Now you're just attacking a straw man. Of course, my words mean nothing, since I don't live in EU.

But I find this informal fallacy rather distasteful.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Whoa, double post.



Blaming an entire demographic for the actions of corrupt politicians? Now you're just attacking a straw man. Of course, my words mean nothing, since I don't live in EU.

But I find this informal fallacy rather distasteful.

I find the penury the Greek people are being driven into more than distasteful, and the restrictions being placed upon them are EXPLICITELY stated to be to make sure they keep up their end of the deal.

As I said - if its about the politicians, get rid of them, don't crash the whole ******** economy, it's pointless.

Also take a look at this:

No one forced anyone into anything. We're dealing with countries here, who are not supposed to walk into scams.

When I was 18 I was offered a Platinum credit card with a limit of £25k. I had no job. I chose not to take it. Not only did Greece decide to take something that was worse than this, but also lied on the form to become a member.

Rory, I think if we're honest, this is much more like every time you wanted something your girlfriend gave it to you, and she was using her dad's credit card.

[rory_20_uk]

I find the penury the Greek people are being driven into more than distasteful, and the restrictions being placed upon them are EXPLICITELY stated to be to make sure they keep up their end of the deal.

As I said - if its about the politicians, get rid of them, don't crash the whole ******** economy, it's pointless.

Rory, I think if we're honest, this is much more like every time you wanted something your girlfriend gave it to you, and she was using her dad's credit card.

The penury is still above the vast majority of the world's population. Deal with it.

The example you give again removes all responsibility that the Greek government had to the situation. To extend your metaphor, even if one's girlfriend is giving one gifts, one should be asking where the money is coming from - and as an adult realise that there are very things free in life. If it wasn't an explicit gift from the source of the money, changes are there will be a bill to pay.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The penury is still above the vast majority of the world's population. Deal with it.

The example you give again removes all responsibility that the Greek government had to the situation. To extend your metaphor, even if one's girlfriend is giving one gifts, one should be asking where the money is coming from - and as an adult realise that there are very things free in life. If it wasn't an explicit gift from the source of the money, changes are there will be a bill to pay.

The only people paying though are the Greek poor, and reducing them to third world status and saying "deal with it" is not sensible, because if we go on like this we might well have to "deal" with a new Junta.

[Kralizec]

Every layer of the population evades taxes, the rich just are more succesful at it because they can afford professional help.

"Third world status"? The fact of the matter is that Greece has acquired the level of development it has today by financial practices which are obviously unsustainable. I realize that pushing Greece into economic servitude isn't desirable or feasible. Ask again when Greece's minimum wage drops to the level of Poland or Slovakia, at which point your words may have some merit.

I still don't see why the Germans (or anyone else) are racists for demanding that Greece displays financial sense in return for loans.

Carthago delenda est.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Which isn't supposed to imply I want Greece destroyed, it refers to the apparent necessity to keep confronting PVC about his accusations of racism before getting an answer

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Every layer of the population evades taxes, the rich just are more succesful at it because they can afford professional help.

"Third world status"? The fact of the matter is that Greece has acquired the level of development it has today by financial practices which are obviously unsustainable. I realize that pushing Greece into economic servitude isn't desirable or feasible. Ask again when Greece's minimum wage drops to the level of Poland or Slovakia, at which point your words may have some merit.

I still don't see why the Germans (or anyone else) are racists for demanding that Greece displays financial sense in return for loans.

Carthago delenda est.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Which isn't supposed to imply I want Greece destroyed, it refers to the apparent necessity to keep confronting PVC about his accusations of racism before getting an answer

I'm sorry, how have I not been clear?

I know Greeks who pay taxes, some of them are over here wondering if, you know, they should be going home.

You are making a blanket generalisation about an entire country - all Greeks are lazy and dishonest, just like all Italians and licentacious cowards, and you ask where I detect the whiff of prejudice?

In Greece, people need soup kitches to survive, we're talking lines around the block here. Sure, Greek wages were inflated, but so were Greek expenses, and the latter have continued to got up while the former have fallen.

you are also subscribing to "people = Government", what is happening is that the Greek people are suffering for the sins of Greek politicians, it's not like there was a referendum on the Euro.

For that matter, they're also suffering for the sins of the German politicians who let Greece join despite knowing the books were cooked and were subsequently the first to run defecits that broke the existing fiscal compact.

Lets he who is without sin cast the first stone, eh?

This WILL NOT WORK. More austerity placed on Greece will cause the economy to continue to contract, requireing more austerity to meat loan repayments, causing further contraction, requiring more loans, requiring more austerity to meet repayments, requireing more contraction.

Read Dickens on Debtors Prison, once you go in you can never escape unless someone else pays your way out.

[Beskar]

Still amazes me that intergovernment lending and debt within the UK alone is far more than the Greek Debt. I am surprised that the Greek debt is really such a massive issue everyone is making out it is, especially when there are 27 countries involved.

I am guessing it is mainly due to the lack of fiscal union which makes it a gear-wrenching mess.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Still amazes me that intergovernment lending and debt within the UK alone is far more than the Greek Debt. I am surprised that the Greek debt is really such a massive issue everyone is making out it is, especially when there are 27 countries involved.

I am guessing it is mainly due to the lack of fiscal union which makes it a gear-wrenching mess.

That, plus exernal exposure, plus the "Rubicon" of a country leaving the Euro.

[Kralizec]

Oh please. Get off your high horse.

I never, never said that all Greeks are lazy, dishonest or whatever. I said that tax evasion is prevalent in all layers of their society - and that is pretty obvious, because it's the same in the Netherlands, and presumably everywhere else. Off the top of my head, I could name 5 personal friends/acquaintances right now who have held jobs that weren't on the employer's books. And allthough few people would deny the necessity of taxes as such, our fiscal agency isn't exactly the most popular institution of our government. Fact: in Greece, it's worse.

Yes, the other European countries are partly responsible because they were aware that Greece's bookkeeping practices were dubious. You seem to be singling out Germany especially for some reason (are you an anti-German racist?), but whatever. It's still primarily the Greek state which was at fault. And I still maintain that the Greek population carries a lot more fault for what happened to them than German taxpayers, who by the way weren't able to vote on the Euro either, let alone on the entry of basket case countries like Greece.

The truly heartless approach to Greece would have been to let it go bankrupt from the outset, kick them out of the EMU and into certain doom and use the money to bail out affected financial institutes instead. In fact I remember some economists who suggested exactly that when the whole mess started collapsing on itself. Instead, the EU and IMF is lending them money at interest rates which are generously low considering the fact that nobody else would lend to them at all. Yet somehow Germany (in particular) is racist for not helping them enough, and for not providing help without strings attached.