When Did the Classical Hoplite fade out?

[ahowl11]

In vanilla Rome Total Wat the Greeks have the Hoplite and Armoured Hoplite unit, other mods feature hoplite units specific to certian cities and EB has the 'Classical Hoplite' unit. My question is, around the time of EB, did hoplites still exist? I know the hellenistic kingdoms used phalangite units but I'm talking about the Aetolian/Achaean Leagues, Sparta, Syracuse, and other "Greek" states that could still have used hoplites. Did they use them, or did they adopt the phalangite as well? Or did they use both?
Any help will be appreciated!

[Arjos]

By the 2nd century BC, they pretty much adopted the thureos...
It was a transition, towards more agile or light equipment, because they weren't the main fighting force anymore: they operated in tandem with either cavalry or protecting the phalangitai's flanks...
Some still preferred heavy armour, but it was only picked individuals, serving as royal guards or the elite class of wealthy poleis, still all using the new celtic shield...

The Aetolians and the Achaeans were actually among the first to develop such corps (thureophoroi)...

[ahowl11]

Oh so the Thureophoroi and Thorakitai essentially replaced the hoplites, but the royal guard and elite corps of troops still fought in the traditional hoplite fashion? So maybe the elite troops of Sparta, Athens, and Syracuse were hoplites?

[Arjos]

Thorakitai and richer versions, were the elite forces...

Syrakusai, Sparte and Athenai didn't last long in the 3rd century, Kleomenes did reform the polis and gained manpower, but he already started to arm some as phalangitai...
There still were rich aspis hoplitai, but in very limited numbers...
Those poleis mostly resorted to external help, or lower classes...

Thureophoroi and Thorakitai essentially replaced the hoplites

Rather they were its evolution...
Discarding the aspis and cumbersome equipment...

[ahowl11]

Ok thanks, im guessing if you were trying to make a hoplite unit they would be elite and expensive while only consisting of around 80 men. So does this mean that the Aetolians/Achaeans, Sparta and other greeks would be using Phalangites along with the Theureophoroi? I'm just trying to get everything straight

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Doesn't the EB unit description say that the Classical Hoplite was used by small Greek towns in the EB era? Not the big cities, like Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Thermon and Demetrias, but the smaller towns and villages in between them?

Maybe the smaller the town, the more likely it is to still be using old-fashioned hoplites. Just like small countries use old-fashioned jet fighters and tanks today. So they are like a local unit of regional militia to bulk out your army, but they are mostly used for town defense. The Classical Hoplite can do a better job of town defense than the basic Levy Hoplite.

[Arjos]

Aetolians/Achaeans, Sparta and other greeks would be using Phalangites

Lately into the game yes, late 3rd - early 2nd century BC...
But again it wasn't in big numbers: the main forces in the area were thureophoroi, peltastai and poor psiloi...

[ahowl11]

@Titus Marcellus Scato, that is a great idea. You would think that each province or city would still have a levy of soldiers fighting in the hoplite fashion.

This raises the question to a broader topic in my mind now.
So in RTW you have Macedon and the Seleucids who have phalangites and the Greeks with Hoplites. I have been very curious about the hoplites existence at the time of RTW and it's mods. This is my conclusion:
Militia Hoplites should stay based off the theory above, but should they be available to the Seleucids or Ptolemies since the local population in the eastern provinces didn't necessarily fight in hoplite fashion? Hoplites and Armoured Hoplites should be deleted from the game.

Another question, in RTW the Greeks have 'Peltasts' and 'Heavy Peltasts'. Now, do the Peltasts actually represent the Psiloi in EB and Heavy Peltasts represent regular Peltasts? Or do the Heavy Peltasts represent the Theureophoroi?

Here is a quick recruitment tree for the greeks in my head, is it accurate?
Tier 1 - Militia Hoplites, Peltasts (Psiloi), Militia Cavalry
Tier 2 - Heavy Peltasts (Theureophoroi), Archers, Greek Cavalry
Tier 3 - Thorakitai, Phalanx Pikemen,
Tier 4 - Elite Hoplite Unit

Now this tree can be edited and expanded but I really want to make an accurate greek army for the Greek Cities faction

[seleucid empire]

i think thorakitai belongs in tier 4 and the only tier 5 units you can recruit are the greek elite cav and the spartans

[ahowl11]

I forget the name for the greek heavy cav, it starts with an 'x'. You are right though, Thorakitai were elite. To me it just seems like the greek army composition during the time of RTW is so vague. I'm hoping to learn as much as I can before I mod the greeks. EB seems to have a pretty accurate roster

[Vilkku92]

I was just wondering. If greek city states were mostly using thureoporoi in the 2nd century BC, when were the Iphikarotei Hoplitai used? I remember the game saying they were the ones that replaced the classical hoplites, not the thureoporoi. Of course, since Iphikarotei were basicaly lighter armed hoplites with thureos and such, it might have just been a transition between classical hoplites and Thureoporoi, and the latter was their replacement. I don't know though, so could someone tell me how it went?

[Arjos]

when were the Iphikarotei Hoplitai used?

Those started around 350 BC and by the balkans invasion adopted the equipment as depicted in EB...
They were a step in between the classical hoplitai and the phalangitai (even though they started as peltastai iirc), afaik they co-existed with thureophoroi and thorakitai...

It was the aspis and the expensive bronze cuirass that were discarded for the infantry in time, because very few people could afford it and with all the military powers neighbouring Hellas, the poleis and koina needed to field as many men as possible...

[ahowl11]

Interesting. I was going to mention the same thing. The Greeks could have a nice and unique roster to choose from! This will probably be their roster (I still need some clarifications regarding a few units)

Doryphoroi - Greek Irregulars, light spearmen
Militia Hoplites - The Levy Hoplites that Titus Marcellus Scato mentioned
Theureophoroi
Levy Pikemen
Thorakitai
Phalanx Pikemen
Iphikratean Pikemen
Elite Hoplites - would depend on the city (Sparta, Corinth, Athens, Syracuse etc)
Thorakitai Pikemen
Psiloi - Peltasts in RTW
Slingers
Archers
Peltasts - Heavy Peltasts in RTW
Prodromoi - Light Lancers in RTW
Hippeis - Greek Cavalry in RTW
Allied Cavalry
Xystophoroi
Politikoi - Militia Cavalry in RTW

Does this roster seem accurate for a Greek faction around 280 BC? The Phalangite units could possibly serve as units who appear later in the game as a reform?
Any help would be great!

[Moros]

The real thureophoroi boom and hence end of hoplitai forces has been suggested to have been due to the battle of Pydna. Though that's usually associated with the theory that the thureophoroi were influenced largely by Roman forces. However around this time the forces of Antiochus III seem to have made much use of thureophoroi styled units. I personally don't really know when the sources stop for hoplites and start for thureophoroi in Hellas, nor how much they overlap. I'll check with Paul he should know.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The real thureophoroi boom and hence end of hoplitai forces has been suggested to have been due to the battle of Pydna. Though that's usually associated with the theory that the thureophoroi were influenced largely by Roman forces. However around this time the forces of Antiochus III seem to have made much use of thureophoroi styled units. I personally don't really know when the sources stop for hoplites and start for thureophoroi in Hellas, nor how much they overlap. I'll check with Paul he should know.

If I'm not mistaken, Antiochus III was dead at the time of Pydna. Not to mention the destruction of Corinth and the last vestiges of Greek freedom only about 20 years in the future. Maybe you are thinking Cynoscephalae?

[Moros]

No I'm thinking of Antioch IV.

[Arjos]

I did write in my very first post that the hoplitai dwindled, in favour of the thureophoroi, in the 2nd century BC XD

[antisocialmunky]

When restatting the Greek Roster in EB 1 multiplayer we did some digging and came to the following conclusions:

1) The divergence between the classical hoplite and the peltast was caused by 2 factors:
-The advancement of Greek warfare during and after the Peloponessian and Corinthian Wars
-The economic and social state of the Greek fighting class

The peltastai kit was initially developed by the Thracians. It consisted of light armor for mobility, a crescent shaped shield, throwing spears, and some sort of short sword for defense. The importance of missiles and mobility in Greek warfare were most acutely demonstrated Battle of Lechaeum where Iphikates defeated the Spartans by putting his dudes on skirmish and fire at will like a cheesy noob. This was probably the point where the skirmishing tactics and lighter armor became a viable alternative to the heavier and more set piece battle centered hoplite style. However peltastai didn't burst onto the scene as this battle demonstrated. Peltastai tactics had actually been adopted since the 400's BCE. Not only was the fighting style feasible as shown by Greek contact with the Thracians its kit was cheaper than that of a heavy infantryman. This issue is very important since the Greek middle class had shrunk (see Athen's invasion of Syracuse) and become increasingly impoverished by the constant wars during this time with wealth becoming more and more controlled by a smaller elite (because the middle class was spending so much time fighting and dying that those that did not fight and did not die made a pretty penny sitting back at home). Thus the disparity between rich and poor was growing and the middle class which formed the core of the Greek army found it more and more difficult to arm themselves heavily. Thus the second major reason for the adoption was that one could not arm themselves with lots of metal armor.

This became such the case that in the 200/300's BCE, peltastai became synonymous with the Greek fighting man (it became a by word for mercenary in the Hellenistic world). So just to recap, the Greeks adopted a fighting style that could go toe to toe with Hoplites but was much cheaper. However, the warrior elite, wealthy mercenaries, and wealthy land owners still fought as hoplites because traditions change slowly and the heavy infantry role was still required.

2) Since the heavy infantry role was needed, people began adapting peltastai to heavy infantry roles. Iphikrates was the first to reform peltastai units into heavy infantry that could fight hoplites on their own terms. Unlike the Thracian peltastai, Greek peltastai was not very good in close combat, thus could not levy mass armies on the cheap. That didn't stop smart people from trying. Iphikrates reformed drilled peltastai with longer spears and used the range advantage to negate the lighter armor of the peltastai. Phillip of Macedon one upped Iphikrates by creating the Phalanx. Macedonia was actually a pretty poor place compared to the south even under Phillip. He had little population well versed in heavy infantry warfare (hoplite tradition) and thus had to figure out a way to match classical hoplite formation. He saw Iphikrate's reformed and went one step further with massive pikes.

2) The peltastai becoming the more popular style eventually led to heavier variations of it like the Thuerophoroi and eventually the Thorakitai because there were fewer and fewer hoplites.

[ahowl11]

Thanks, it seems like my roster seems pretty accurate based on what you guys have been saying. Maybe when the Phalangites become available I can make it so the hoplites are no longer recruitable

[antisocialmunky]

That's not strictly true and even then the hoplite kit stayed around for a while longer for certain types of assault troops.

[ahowl11]

Hmmm.. maybe I won't even include a reform. I do not want the Greeks to be super powerful though. However, I am pretty sure all of the units I listed were used

[seleucid empire]

yeh the greek roster has always bugged me for some reason, there are so many types of elite hoplites available as well as the fact that you can make stacks and stacks of them after you conquer the balkans

[ahowl11]

There would have to be a limit on how many could be recruited or something. However, I really do not want to over complicate the game. hmmmm....