Koran Burning Craziness

[PanzerJaeger]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

By The Wall Street Journal

February 23, 2012

KABUL -- Afghanistan is bracing for intensifying protests, as outrage over the burning of Korans at a US military base led to the first American casualties Thursday and President Barack Obama vowed to hold coalition officials accountable for the "inadvertent" sacrilege.

The three days of protests against Monday's burning of Islam's holiest book at the Bagram Air Field already have resulted in the deaths of at least 10 Afghans. Demonstrations are expected to escalate Friday, when clerics at mosques around the country are expected to dedicate their weekly sermons to denouncing the incident.

The deadly demonstrations that spread across Kabul and Afghanistan's provinces this week have targeted US and coalition military bases, Afghan government buildings and other symbols of Western presence.

Hours after the Taliban called on Afghans to kill Western forces in Afghanistan to avenge the insult Thursday, an Afghan soldier opened fire on US troops at a base in the eastern Nangarhar Province, according to Afghan officials.

Two American troops were killed before the Afghan soldier escaped into a crowd of protesters demonstrating outside the base in the province's Khogyani district.

This week's demonstrations erupted after coalition soldiers brought a truckload of Korans and other Islamic books from a Bagram detention facility to an incinerator at the base. Afghan workers at the base said they stopped the soldiers from destroying the books, but not before several copies of the Koran had been partially burned.

US military officials have launched an investigation to try to determine why the soldiers tried to burn Islamic materials. These books, according to some US officials, were slated for destruction because they contained "extremist literature" and prisoners' "clandestine communications."

Last April, after a Florida pastor oversaw the burning of a Koran, angry demonstrators in northern Afghanistan stormed a United Nations compound following Friday prayers, killing seven foreigners.

The memories of last year's attack resonated this week as Western embassies, aid groups and the US military imposed strict travel bans on their staffs and warned foreigners to steer clear of protests. The American Embassy in Kabul extended travel restrictions to northern Afghanistan on Thursday.

In another attempt to assuage the anger, Obama apologized to Karzai for what he called inadvertent attempts to burn the Islamic books, in a personal letter delivered Thursday by the US ambassador to Kabul, Ryan Crocker.

"I assure you that we will take appropriate steps to avoid any recurrence, to include holding accountable those responsible," Obama said in the letter, according to Karzai's office.

Karzai, who issued an appeal for calm Wednesday that appeared to have little immediate effect, met with hundreds of Afghan lawmakers to discuss the crisis Thursday. Some of these lawmakers had called for a "jihad," or holy war, against the US on Wednesday.

The Taliban has sought to capitalize on the widespread outrage by calling for Afghans across the country to attack Western bases, target military convoys and kill soldiers. Earlier this week, it also urged Afghan soldiers to turn their weapons on their Western counterparts.

At the same time, the latest Taliban statement affirmed the insurgent group's support for continuing negotiations with the US to open a Taliban political office in Qatar.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pe_hpp_LEFTTop

This is just surreal. The above story reads like an Onion article. There wasn't this much outrage when it was discovered that a group of US soldiers made a hobby out of killing Afghan civilians, but somebody checks the wrong box at garbage pick-up and the nation descends into chaos.

I think this is a microcosm of the whole effort in Afghanistan. These people's priorities are just so completely stu... idio... cra... different than our own that they will never be dragged into the 21st century.

[rvg]

Yeah, we really need to get out of there. Let them go back to the middle ages.

[rory_20_uk]

Amen.

There is no middle ground with such people. Leave 'em to it. Maybe fellow Muslim countries can see where they're coming from.

[Kralizec]

To be honest, allthough the reaction is certainly overblown, it's well known that muslims are extremely sensitive when it comes to the physical destruction of Qu'ran books. As if they were religious idols or something.
Trying to dump a load of Qu'rans into a furnace suggests a serious lack of judgement.

[rvg]

...Trying to dump a load of Qu'rans into a furnace suggests a serious lack of judgement.

But what does trying to kill people over that suggest?

[rory_20_uk]

To be honest, allthough the reaction is certainly overblown, it's well known that muslims are extremely sensitive when it comes to the physical destruction of Qu'ran books. As if they were religious idols or something.
Trying to dump a load of Qu'rans into a furnace suggests a serious lack of judgement.

Boo hoo, get over it.

Lopping off limbs / stoning people to death / making them wear odd clothing irks me, but I don't think it's OK to kill people over it. If they want tolerance, they have to provide it to others.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well boo hoo, the Taliban don't want tolerance. They are probably quite happy for the USA to bugger off and go bother someone else, whilst they take over and stone some more people to death for good measure.

Yes this is serious lack of judgment because the idiots who did it should've realised that in Afghanistan there would be hell to pay for this, and not with stern notes from their command but with the blood of their fellow soldiers who are going to get killed “in revenge”. It's utterly irrelevant what you or I think, it matters a great deal more how this is spun by the Taliban.

[CBR]

Western decadency always wins, it just takes time.

Smartbombs on the nutters and smartphones for the wimenz.

[rvg]

Smartbombs on the nutters and smartphones for the wimenz.

Smartbombs are too expensive. Good old fashioned carpet bombings would be cheaper and would have a greater effect. The beauty of violence, fear and pain is that it is universally understood and understood well. We need to remind them that we should be feared, moreso than the Taliban. Yeah, Taliban can go in chop a few heads, we can do more than that.

[CBR]

If I'm deciphering the tables correctly then they might cost 5 to 10 times more than the dumb version. So, unless you don't know where the target is, I don't think you save any money using dumb bombs.

It might create more shock and awe but it also requires more planes to do the job, and they are becoming hideously expensive and therefore fewer in numbers.

[The Stranger]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

By The Wall Street Journal

February 23, 2012

KABUL -- Afghanistan is bracing for intensifying protests, as outrage over the burning of Korans at a US military base led to the first American casualties Thursday and President Barack Obama vowed to hold coalition officials accountable for the "inadvertent" sacrilege.

The three days of protests against Monday's burning of Islam's holiest book at the Bagram Air Field already have resulted in the deaths of at least 10 Afghans. Demonstrations are expected to escalate Friday, when clerics at mosques around the country are expected to dedicate their weekly sermons to denouncing the incident.

The deadly demonstrations that spread across Kabul and Afghanistan's provinces this week have targeted US and coalition military bases, Afghan government buildings and other symbols of Western presence.

Hours after the Taliban called on Afghans to kill Western forces in Afghanistan to avenge the insult Thursday, an Afghan soldier opened fire on US troops at a base in the eastern Nangarhar Province, according to Afghan officials.

Two American troops were killed before the Afghan soldier escaped into a crowd of protesters demonstrating outside the base in the province's Khogyani district.

This week's demonstrations erupted after coalition soldiers brought a truckload of Korans and other Islamic books from a Bagram detention facility to an incinerator at the base. Afghan workers at the base said they stopped the soldiers from destroying the books, but not before several copies of the Koran had been partially burned.

US military officials have launched an investigation to try to determine why the soldiers tried to burn Islamic materials. These books, according to some US officials, were slated for destruction because they contained "extremist literature" and prisoners' "clandestine communications."

Last April, after a Florida pastor oversaw the burning of a Koran, angry demonstrators in northern Afghanistan stormed a United Nations compound following Friday prayers, killing seven foreigners.

The memories of last year's attack resonated this week as Western embassies, aid groups and the US military imposed strict travel bans on their staffs and warned foreigners to steer clear of protests. The American Embassy in Kabul extended travel restrictions to northern Afghanistan on Thursday.

In another attempt to assuage the anger, Obama apologized to Karzai for what he called inadvertent attempts to burn the Islamic books, in a personal letter delivered Thursday by the US ambassador to Kabul, Ryan Crocker.

"I assure you that we will take appropriate steps to avoid any recurrence, to include holding accountable those responsible," Obama said in the letter, according to Karzai's office.

Karzai, who issued an appeal for calm Wednesday that appeared to have little immediate effect, met with hundreds of Afghan lawmakers to discuss the crisis Thursday. Some of these lawmakers had called for a "jihad," or holy war, against the US on Wednesday.

The Taliban has sought to capitalize on the widespread outrage by calling for Afghans across the country to attack Western bases, target military convoys and kill soldiers. Earlier this week, it also urged Afghan soldiers to turn their weapons on their Western counterparts.

At the same time, the latest Taliban statement affirmed the insurgent group's support for continuing negotiations with the US to open a Taliban political office in Qatar.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pe_hpp_LEFTTop

This is just surreal. The above story reads like an Onion article. There wasn't this much outrage when it was discovered that a group of US soldiers made a hobby out of killing Afghan civilians, but somebody checks the wrong box at garbage pick-up and the nation descends into chaos.

I think this is a microcosm of the whole effort in Afghanistan. These people's priorities are just so completely stu... idio... cra... different than our own that they will never be dragged into the 21st century.

if you do not act american you are not in the 21st century... that one is new to me.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action. These savages displayed none of these traits. They lack self-control when they started burning and rioting over disposal of a material item. They lack understanding when they refuse to accept that burning of these items or articles is NOT a symbolic thing. They don't place proper valuation on human LIFE when it ends in this ridiculous, despicable display of ignorance over such an act.

Here's a secular example. I was going to use something like the Vietnam War Memorial but there's only one of those so it doesn't fit. Say somewhere in Afghanistan, there's a large number of American flags. These have important, symbolic meaning to us Americans and we feel they should be treated with the proper respect and care. The Afghans dispose of these by tossing them in the trash and landfills, and some American notices. We would be outraged at this, it'd be all over the news and publicly decried and denounced hand over foot, but we aren't going to go burn down the Afghan embassy, stone Afghans on sight, or act like uncivilized savages.

Destroy something material with malicious intent or not, someone can get as mad as they please. The difference between US and THEM is that we exercise self control and place proper valuation on the action, and context of the action, and maintain self-control throughout. We can make more flags, we can discuss this like civilized people, and we can come to accords or understandings. We can't resurrect an individual who has been killed, or take back permanant debilitating injuries that result from such stupidity.

and here i was, thinking that France was a civilised country.

You are not just burning a material thing, you are destroying the fundament of their ideals. ok lets go with that.

When the students of '66 thought that the government was "destroying" ideals, what did they do? They rose and took to the streets, and I dont think it was all very peacefull. Perhaps the level of violence differed, but that is a gradual difference, and i think you make the difference between civilised and uncivilised principial. so unless France only civilised after '66 or if those people were not civilised people, how does this fit?

or, what about this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot

London riots... Or that it turns out that most hardcore football hooligans were infact "civilised" familymen, or they became such later.

its all much more complicated than you make it out to be.

The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action.

many of these traits are lacking in let's say the german army (as a whole, or the ss if you would like). still it would be hard to maintain that germany of that time was uncivilised.

[Whacker]

and here i was, thinking that France was a civilised country.

You are not just burning a material thing, you are destroying the fundament of their ideals. ok lets go with that.

No, what was "incorrectly disposed of" was a object that contains writing which they then interpret however they feel appropriate. Again, people seem to be missing the point. Objects should never, ever have more value than human life. If someone destroyed the Vietnam War Memorial in the capital, I'd be beyond pissed, and whomever did it should serve life. But I'm not going to take to the streets with all my neighbors, burning and looting as I damn well please about it.

When the students of '66 thought that the government was "destroying" ideals, what did they do? They rose and took to the streets, and I dont think it was all very peacefull. Perhaps the level of violence differed, but that is a gradual difference, and i think you make the difference between civilised and uncivilised principial. so unless France only civilised after '66 or if those people were not civilised people, how does this fit?

or, what about this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot

You're confusing demonstrating vs rioting. Demonstrations do turn into riots occasionally, given the wrong stimuli and circumstances.

hardcore football hooligans were infact "civilised" familymen

Self-contradicting statement.

[The Stranger]

No, what was "incorrectly disposed of" was a object that contains writing which they then interpret however they feel appropriate. Again, people seem to be missing the point. Objects should never, ever have more value than human life. If someone destroyed the Vietnam War Memorial in the capital, I'd be beyond pissed, and whomever did it should serve life. But I'm not going to take to the streets with all my neighbors, burning and looting as I damn well please about it.

i agree with you here, only it is too simple to talk of just objects. true i wish it was that simple and to you and me it perhaps is, but like i said it is what constitutes the fundament of their ideals. you can say that its not the case or that it ought not be the case, but it is. and for the majority of the people in this world, if you will touch their ideals in a way to destroy them they will rise up and fight, this includes the "civilised" countries. you can then call it demonstration or riot... but one is just an marginally more organised version of the other.

You're confusing demonstrating vs rioting. Demonstrations do turn into riots occasionally, given the wrong stimuli and circumstances.

ask them what it was and they will say it was a demonstration. ask you what it was and it was a riot...

Self-contradicting statement.

many socalled civilised people turn into savages if you place them into a group with a cause or opportunity to misbehave.

[Vladimir]

I'm moving a little slow but are people saying that killing people is wrong and that we should kill people until they stop killing us?

[rory_20_uk]

Pretty much...

It seems to be that there are two solutions. One is to kill everyone, the other is to leave them to it.

The first is from a practical point difficult to undertake, as geographically the area is large and there are many places to hide. There is also no clear edge that one can use, and the resentment that would arise from those in surrounding areas would be immense. Judging by some of the posts here, getting teams to undertake the exercise might not be as difficult as some might think.

The second therefore seems to be the best long term approach. Continuing with the half way house that is being pursued is not only massively expensive, but is also probably counter-productive.

[rory_20_uk]

Duplicate.

[Slyspy]

Leave or slaughter the people, burn their homes and sow the fields with salt? A choice which all empires have to make eventually.

[rvg]

Leave or slaughter the people, burn their homes and sow the fields with salt? A choice which all empires have to make eventually.

Why "or"? "And"!

[Fragony]

Why "or"? "And"!

And for what? Why so upset this is self-eflicted violence. Just think of what you are actually saying. Just because they grew up without running water doesn't make Afghans total idiots