Koran Burning Craziness

[Tellos Athenaios]

It seems to me most of the whining is the european armchair generals who know far better how things should be going and how to handle things, AND who think that there is an excuse for this idiotic rioting that's going on (education, self-righteous rage, etc etc). Hint: there is none.

Yes I would agree. But does it matter what you or I think? I'd submit that it doesn't. It matters a great deal more what the various Afghani who objected think, because they are the people the US has to deal with in what way they can whilst they are in Afghanistan. If they chose to fixate on the evils of the US instead of appreciating the measurable benefits it has brought to the country, then that is actually not their problem -- but “yours”. It is because, you are still there and because, presumably, you want to minimise the cost of your stay in terms of lives. What is so difficult to grasp here? That is going to be a heck of a lot easier if you don't provide the sparks to lingering anti-US violence, what is so difficult to understand about that?

I don't disagree it would be better for the US to get out and save themselves from the madness ASAP.

But right now, at this point you're simply not engaged in a war of right & wrong; by and large neither morality nor sanity are part of the equation at all... By contrast politics, and especially internal Afghan politics are the very essence of the game. I thought that was largely the takeaway message from pretty much all of MRD's posts about the subject of Afghanistan. Political capital matters a great deal more than our cosy little Internet debate about what presumed moral failings we can read into each others lines.

Some people keep harping on the fact that the US military is in "someone else's home". We've made it clear why we are there. Now it's time to leave, since the job we came to do is done.

No, what matters is the insane reaction to this action. All attempts to mitigate this or explain why they are doing it are ridiculuously pointless and do nothing but attempt to absolve the rioters from their responsibility.

All more attempts to excuse their behavior. The reaction is not commensurate with the action.

Again, why do you think any of that is actually relevant ?

How profoundly arrogant, maybe you can get a job in the White House as secretary of defense, or something on the joint chief's staff. I'm sure they'd welcome your insight on what the US military's job really is.

You disagree with the notion the US military has (a) to do risk assessment and (b) by now should be aware that as long as you are still in Afghanistan, you do have to thread carefully because as has been observed before you don't have much goodwill to fall back on? You disagree with the notion that burning a Quran is not likely to endear you to the wider populace, that some form of public outcry is to be expected?

So which is the correct choice to make: (1) burn the books, then act all outraged at this disproportionate backlash, or (2) not burn the books. Was going with option (1) worth it? You be the judge of that.

At the end of the day, a number of Afghanis are outraged, the Taliban gets fresh ammunition for their propaganda and US service people get shot in “retalliation”, a number of Americans post outraged posts on an Internet forum and a bunch of Europeans think “yes, well, what did you expect?”, which somehow the Americans seem to find almost even more insulting.

Quite clearly in this instance, whoever let those Qurans burn miscalculated; and as some posters so eloquently put it now the US service people reap the whirlwind, too. Justified? Not in my opinion, but as I submitted before what I think about it is as relevant as the strawmen Sasaki will doubtlessly try and put up next.

[Husar]

It seems to me most of the whining is the european armchair generals who know far better how things should be going and how to handle things, AND who think that there is an excuse for this idiotic rioting that's going on (education, self-righteous rage, etc etc). Hint: there is none.

There's also a difference between an excuse and an explanation.
Since you're obviously referring to my post, you may want to go back and check what I wrote instead of claiming that I made excuses when I didn't.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well if you enjoy straw so much, don't let me stop you.

Some more clutching at, I see. Look, I'm not the posters here who call them savages. I'm not even remotely interested in defending what they did to innocent US service people, and I'm certainly not interested in a morality debate over it.

I do however agree fully with PVC that the Quran holds special value in Afghani society, and that to burn them is going to result in backlash as a matter of course. I full well expect them to be capable of much better, but I don't expect them to hand in a politely worded note of dissent at the US embassy either. From what MRD and other posters have written in Afghanistan, that would be foolishly naive. Therefore, I think the Americans who cry out and going all “look at those savages, I don't know why we're bothering” are utterly misguided.

If there was a case where a girl was molested at a frat party, and someone kept insisting that what was really important was how stupid she was for getting drunk, and that how bad the frat boys were wasn't relevant, you would ask why...

You have no interest in criticizing the Afghani's, but have an extreme interest in criticizing the American soldiers. So the question is why.

It's perfectly clear that this was an uninteresting accident by a few people. On the other hand, the widespread protests in which dozens have died is important regarding the situation in the country...it's clearly a major political issue, part of the ongoing debate in this country about our long standing doubts about the feasibility of nation building, and the coming US election could have a major effect on what happens there. It's obvious which topic is more important an interesting.

The only thing repeating stuff that everyone knows about the Afghans (the Quran holds special value) and about the burning (bad idea) does is give you an excuse to vent your prejudice.

[Tellos Athenaios]

If there was a case where a girl was molested at a frat party, and someone kept insisting that what was really important was how stupid she was for getting drunk, and that how bad the frat boys were wasn't relevant, you would ask why...

Wait, you're not serious are you? The US army, a molested girl at a frat party?

As for the rest: you're still not getting it. Your uninteresting little incident, is in fact the reason for your “interesting” one, and as the cynical British doctor might point out, usually the root cause is much more interesting than the symptoms. As in this case, because the root cause may well indicate what is to happen next.

Or, if you thought that a bunch of shootings were the worst of it; you're likely wrong. There will be more backlash the US army will have to face in trying to do its job in Afghanistan. I don't think it did wonders for how cooperative the Afghani tribal elders are, let alone for the safety of the US servicemen and women, not to mention USA's wider strategic interest/stakes in the Afghan politics game.

By contrast, in this context your USA-centric viewpoint is completely besides the point, again. Who gives a toss about what impact it'll have on the elections? (Read: what real world impact will that have on the US forces in Afghanistan or their retreat?) How are the US elections even remotely relevant to the subject?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Wait, you're not serious are you? The US army, a molested girl at a frat party?

As for the rest: you're still not getting it. Your uninteresting little incident, is in fact the reason for your “interesting” one, and as the cynical British doctor might point out, usually the root cause is much more interesting than the symptoms. As in this case, because the root cause may well indicate what is to happen next.

Or, if you thought that a bunch of shootings were the worst of it; you're likely wrong. There will be more backlash the US army will have to face in trying to do its job in Afghanistan. I don't think it did wonders for how cooperative the Afghani tribal elders are, let alone for the safety of the US servicemen and women, not to mention USA's wider strategic interest/stakes in the Afghan politics game.

The root cause was was some koran's being burnt. The reason why the Koran's were burnt is unknown for sure, but seems to be nothing more than an uninteresting mistake, you can easily predict that with this many people living in a sensitive culture there will be some incident. What was going through the soldiers heads? Is it important? No. The effect is what is interesting--as you say "what happens next". How can you say that the root cause is more interesting than the symptoms, and then say that it's because the root cause indicates what the symptoms will be, and then talk about the symptoms a bunch?

You are only interested in the burning because it gives you an excuse to talk about how stupid you think the US military is...

By contrast, in this context your USA-centric viewpoint is completely besides the point, again. Who gives a toss about what impact it'll have on the elections? (Read: what real world impact will that have on the US forces in Afghanistan or their retreat?) How are the US elections even remotely relevant to the subject?

"The US election could have an effect on what happens there"

Depending on who is elected, the Afghan strategy might change. Isn't it obvious how it's relevant?

At the end of the day, a number of Afghanis are outraged, the Taliban gets fresh ammunition for their propaganda and US service people get shot in “retalliation”, a number of Americans post outraged posts on an Internet forum and a bunch of Europeans think “yes, well, what did you expect?”,

In your imagination, Americans didn't know that burning a Koran would offend the afghani's and that there would be a backlash of some sort. Think about that for a second. This is why I called you prejudiced...

If it was a story about a murder in a poor black neighborhood, would you start saying things like "my god, what did those naive black people expect living in a neighborhood like that?" Naturally not...you wouldn't assume they were ignorant. But I suppose since you tried to brush off the other analogy with "lol, so the US army is a molested girl??" you'll brush of this one too. You'll probably explain in a painstaking way that it isn't a direct analogy.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The root cause was was some koran's being burnt. The reason why the Koran's were burnt is unknown for sure, but seems to be nothing more than an uninteresting mistake, you can easily predict that with this many people living in a sensitive culture there will be some incident. What was going through the soldiers heads? Is it important? No.

Think of what you're writing: debugging the system and it's procedural checks is not important? Really?

Depending on who is elected, the Afghan strategy might change. Isn't it obvious how it's relevant?

Depending on who is elected... in half a year's time! This incident isn't going to make or break an election, what it is going to do however is chalk one up the long list of “scores” to settle for disgruntled Afghans (especially those in the Afghan forces). This is far more important, because they actually have the means and the ability to settle them, and half a year is plenty of time in which to do so.

So what change is going to happen because of who gets elected then? The US stay longer? The US leave sooner? Any such decision will practically have to wait until this time next year, or so, inauguration and everything... Beside a fundamental, meaningful change of plan, seems rather unlikely now: with public support for the war in Afghanistan so low.

In your imagination, Americans didn't know that burning a Koran would offend the afghani's and that there would be a backlash of some sort. Think about that for a second. This is why I called you prejudiced...

See this is why you really shouldn't try to read things into other peoples posts that aren't there: as in this case, you're so often wrong.

[The Stranger]

You are only interested in the burning because it gives you an excuse to talk about how stupid you think the US military is...

you are only interested in the riot to say how savage afghani are compared to the model civilised people on the setting side of the sun.


how about this analogy china occupies america to root out mexican and south-american drugbarons hiding there. they bomb the rockies, accidentally kill some civilians, introduce chinese culture because that is obviously the most superior one in the world, and just before they decide to leave after like 10 years of "occupation" and arguably having left the country in a worse state than when they came, they burn the original copy of the founding fathers manuscript (dunno if it exists, but lets assume that it does), what do you think those americans will do?

you can say whatever you want and there is no excusing certain deeds but its too simple to say they are just savage rioteers and they should chillax, smoke some opium and go back to their caves. was the boston tea party a civilised act of demonstration or a savage riot? at the time it would depend who you asked, now its the birth (or inpregnating) of a nation. the uprisings in egypt, lybia etc, violent demonstrations? or savage riots? or victory of the western ideals in the middle east aka march towards civilisation?

anyway the better analogy for your black neighbourhood story would be this, white european hipster immigration into harlem, then one couple for whatever reasons burns the civil rights act and the abolition of slavery (or similar literature). they are discovered by the local black garbageman or bum (whatever spices up your story) and there is a massive uproar.
some things get thrashed, the couple gets murdered bladibladibla.

now there is no excuse for the violent outbreak, yet wouldnt you say that what the couple did was ignorant?

[rory_20_uk]

... they burn the original copy of the founding fathers manuscript (dunno if it exists, but lets assume that it does), what do you think those americans will do?

Hardly apples with apples is it? No one has bombed Mecca. It would be like destroying a copy of the founding father's manuscript, and one that was defaced to allow it to be used to communicate with others surreptitiously.

[The Stranger]

make it a dozen of all the religious books in america then, same thing will happen.

in europe nobody will care so obviously europeans are the most civilised people in the world... we invited civilisation as a way to troll barbarians, it just got out of hand...

[HoreTore]

make it a dozen of all the religious books in america then, same thing will happen.

in europe nobody will care so obviously europeans are the most civilised people in the world... we invited civilisation as a way to troll barbarians, it just got out of hand...

We here in Europe have not been occupied by a foreign invader for the last decade. The situations cannot be compared. Like I have tried to say previously, this is not about the Quran. This is about growing discontent and hate towards a foreign occupation. Burning the Quran was seen as an insult, and it simply acted as a spark to ignite the underlying feelings of hate.

If you want to compare it to Europe, you'll need to go back to the 40's and ask yourself what would happen if the nazi's in some way insulted or desecrated a national symbol of an occupied country. Like if they toppled the Eiffel Tower in '42.

[The Stranger]

that comment was in jest...

[Fragony]

We here in Europe have not been occupied by a foreign invader for the last decade. The situations cannot be compared. Like I have tried to say previously, this is not about the Quran. This is about growing discontent and hate towards a foreign occupation. Burning the Quran was seen as an insult, and it simply acted as a spark to ignite the underlying feelings of hate.

If you want to compare it to Europe, you'll need to go back to the 40's and ask yourself what would happen if the nazi's in some way insulted or desecrated a national symbol of an occupied country. Like if they toppled the Eiffel Tower in '42.

Ya. Is there a greater insult possible than a invading power burning your holy books. They are angry and I don't blame them one bit, and yeah we do things differently but I don't remember them asking for our guidance. It's just stupid stupid stupid

[Vladimir]

I'm moving a little slow but are people saying that killing people is wrong and that we should kill people until they stop killing us?

[rory_20_uk]

Pretty much...

It seems to be that there are two solutions. One is to kill everyone, the other is to leave them to it.

The first is from a practical point difficult to undertake, as geographically the area is large and there are many places to hide. There is also no clear edge that one can use, and the resentment that would arise from those in surrounding areas would be immense. Judging by some of the posts here, getting teams to undertake the exercise might not be as difficult as some might think.

The second therefore seems to be the best long term approach. Continuing with the half way house that is being pursued is not only massively expensive, but is also probably counter-productive.

[rory_20_uk]

Duplicate.

[Slyspy]

Leave or slaughter the people, burn their homes and sow the fields with salt? A choice which all empires have to make eventually.

[rvg]

Leave or slaughter the people, burn their homes and sow the fields with salt? A choice which all empires have to make eventually.

Why "or"? "And"!

[Fragony]

Why "or"? "And"!

And for what? Why so upset this is self-eflicted violence. Just think of what you are actually saying. Just because they grew up without running water doesn't make Afghans total idiots

[rvg]

Because the Taliban will inevitably take over. After they've established a grip on the country and paraded Karzai with his balls in his mouth they'll inevitably try to expand their influence. Wrecking that country even further will leave them with fewer resources to use against their neighbors (and us).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Or, you know, do it properly and stay the 20-30 years it takes to pacify a country.

I know PJ thinks little of British soldiers, but if you want an object lesson on Counter Terrorism you should read up on Operation Banner.

[rvg]

Or, you know, do it properly and stay the 20-30 years it takes to pacify a country.

I know PJ thinks little of British soldiers, but if you want an object lesson on Counter Terrorism you should read up on Operation Banner.

Nah, not worth it. I don't feel like spending neither my money nor the lives of my compatriots on the Afghans.

[rory_20_uk]

Or, you know, do it properly and stay the 20-30 years it takes to pacify a country.

I know PJ thinks little of British soldiers, but if you want an object lesson on Counter Terrorism you should read up on Operation Banner.

Northern Ireland / Ireland in general is a lot smaller than Afghanistan.
Although there were those trying to derail the peace in Ireland, the players trying to do so in Afghanistan are far more numerous.
People in Ireland have an economy (or sorts). Afghanistan barely has a functioning economy. What they have is based around illegal crops of opium
Ireland had a functioning system of government. Afghanistan's government is corrupt from top to bottom, and is from inception not trusted by the people.
At least a decent percentage of those in Northern Ireland didn't view the soldiers as invaders / crusaders. This is rarely the case in Afghanistan.
The Irish and English speak similar languages in the main, have similar faiths and barring episodes of Irish logic, make sense to each other. Rarely the case in Afghanistan.

Pakistan, after close to 60 years has failed to integrate the Northern Tribal Areas. They have similar ethnic backgrounds, similar religions and even with twice as long there is little if any improvement. How would be manage to sort out a vastly bigger area with such massive cultural gulfs?

And as RVG said, at the end of the day, it ain't worth it.

[Papewaio]

Ireland & England separation is akin to what happened with India and Pakistan separation.

Afghanistan is also similar to post WWII Marshall plans and what happened in Japan. However Japan had a much more educated populace that was a democracy Pre-war. So it was in a much better starting point. The people were defeated, half starved and obeyed their Emperor.

I also suspect rules of occupation in Japan were far more harsh. Japanese swords and other weapons, heirlooms or not, had to be surrended. Did the same thing happen in Afghanistan? Samurai had their swords taken why not the Afghans AKs?

Simply put we are not ruthless enough to be Imperial Japan, not are we tough enough to handle the long haul to properly fix the situation.

The burning of the Korans was malicious it was stupid.
The riots were a logical outcome given what happened when a crackpot burnt a koran last year.

The response to the protestors probably should have been apologize, crackdown on any violence, curfew and more patrols.

[PanzerJaeger]

Or, you know, do it properly and stay the 20-30 years it takes to pacify a country.

I know PJ thinks little of British soldiers, but if you want an object lesson on Counter Terrorism you should read up on Operation Banner.

I think little of the British military as an operational force. British soldiers are among the best in the world. It is the leadership and establishment they operate under that often lets them down. It has been a common theme since the world wars at least. One of the major issues the British had in Iraq was trying to apply poorly reasoned lessons from Operation Banner to a Middle Eastern insurgency and then arrogantly holding fast to those lessons in the face of obvious failure. The leadership showed no ability or even willingness to adapt.

[Fragony]

Because the Taliban will inevitably take over. After they've established a grip on the country and paraded Karzai with his balls in his mouth they'll inevitably try to expand their influence. Wrecking that country even further will leave them with fewer resources to use against their neighbors (and us).

Let India and Russia worry about that

[gaelic cowboy]

I suppose what Operation Banner shows is you eventually have to do a deal of some kind so in the end some kind of Taliban entity if not the actual one will be allowed back inside.

There was a cartoon here a few years back which showed Gerry Adams, Yasser Arafat an Bin Laden the word terrorist was crossed out and replaced with diplomat while Bin laden was just smiling saying "Give it time".

Bin Laden wont get his chance but we cant discount others of his ilk being let inside the tent one day.

[rvg]

Let India and Russia worry about that

I was actually thinking about Pakistan. With the Pakistani taliban already causing trouble the addition of taliban-controlled Afghanistan might further destabilize the current government in Islamabad. Pakistan has nukes, we cannot afford to let it descend into chaos or be taken over by the taliban.

[gaelic cowboy]

I was actually thinking about Pakistan. With the Pakistani taliban already causing trouble the addition of taliban-controlled Afghanistan might further destabilize the current government in Islamabad. Pakistan has nukes, we cannot afford to let it descend into chaos or be taken over by the taliban.

Once the Americans leave the Pakistanni Taliban will be turned on the Indians as they were always meant to be.(an they will be happy to do it)

[rvg]

Once the Americans leave the Pakistanni Taliban will be turned on the Indians as they were always meant to be.(an they will be happy to do it)

I doubt it. Pakistan has groups that are fighting against India, but none of those guys are associated with taliban. Taliban is more interested in talibanizing Pakistan before anything else.

[Fragony]

I was actually thinking about Pakistan. With the Pakistani taliban already causing trouble the addition of taliban-controlled Afghanistan might further destabilize the current government in Islamabad. Pakistan has nukes, we cannot afford to let it descend into chaos or be taken over by the taliban.

I was thinking about Pakistan as well, India's problem not yours. All you got to do is look the other way and leave it to those less interested in human rights, they are already used to that anyway