Saka edu: Feedback Appreciated

[Lazy O]

You no pay enough attention to us anymore :(((

[gamegeek2]

That's probably true :/

I do think that elite units with AP are rather overpowered though. I could get rid of the special cost boost on Iberian Assaults if we depowered them.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I'd say the overall problem is that armor values are too high, generally speaking. I think a reduction of armor values by 10-20% across the board would help make AP less powerful than it currently is. Also light infantry should gain extra points in defense skill to make them more viable counters to AP units, even heavy ones. This all being said, I still prefer longsword units to comparable AP units.

[gamegeek2]

Again, another problem I plan to at least try to solve in EBNOM

[antisocialmunky]

Then you OP slingers unless you modify them :) so the circle of nerfing continues.

I think you should increase the base stats of each type of dood:
-Levys
-Militia
-Citizen Soldiers
-Career Soldiers
-etc

Its ability and not equipment that should be the primary decider of battles. Currently different types of equipment produce too much of a difference in unit stats and performance.

[Lazy O]

Between equal skill types, equipment does matter .

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Then you OP slingers unless you modify them :) so the circle of nerfing continues.

Wait, lowering armor doesn't make slingers more OP, it makes them less. I mean, yes they would do more damage, but not compared to all other units that don't rely on AP. If anything, it makes archers more powerful. I for one, would recommend the reduction of missile unit sizes, but GG2 did say he is working on reforming the missile system.

[gamegeek2]

Reducing missile unit sizes is for the most part rather ahistorical. It was done in EB but it really doesn't make sense except in the case of rare mercenaries such as Cretan Archers. The fact of the matter is that missile units weren't all that effective in Western warfare due to the pre-eminence of large shields; the Parthians at Carrhae shot at the Romans all day and didn't manage to kill more than half, probably not even more than a quarter, by doing this (not including the massacre of Publius and his men).

The problem with EB is not only that it undervalued skill (which is why they had to give barbarians a +1 atk and def bonus) but that it also undercosted armour. That's something that isn't the case in the new EBNOM system I'm working on, in which armor costs rise exponentially. The number of AP weapons however will be lower, incidentally making up for the even higher relative cost of cataphracts that will result.

[Lazy O]

It is still a rather large number of men killed by arrows, since most casualties occur during a rout, arrow storms are far more useful for sapping morale, and, you know, harassment .

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Now this always interested me. A lot of infantry in the east used large shields too, sparabara and such. But often the shields were made of wicker. Does a wicker shield stop an arrow?

Of course a solid wooden theuros, scutum, or aspis would. But a wicker shield? I don't see as much of a point. Why wasn't solid wood used?

[gamegeek2]

Sadly, arrows don't seem to sap morale effectively: archer units that rout after 10 seconds in melee will stand to the last man in a shootout.

Wicker shields also stop arrows, I think, or at least those of old-style Persian bows, and used properly they might be able to turn aside a javelin; I don't think they'd be much use against the powerful bows of the Parthians or Yuezhi. I suppose my answer was also overly simplistic, though: there wasn't really a strong archery tradition in Western lands, likely due to the low quality of the bows produced there (in comparison to eastern composite bows).

[antisocialmunky]

Between equal skill types, equipment does matter .

Yeah but in this game, equipment gets more % of total stats than man. I rather have everything based on a slight difference in stats between similar units than the wildly varying stats currently. Atleast then you would know if you put unit x and unit y into battle against each other, unit x will probably win very slowly but if you use missile and other things then unit x probably won't win. So factions have more similar units but the slight differences can win battles with exploited correctly.

Right now its like:
Roman Swords + Armor > Celtic Non AP + High Defense > Germanic AP + No Armor or Defense > Roman Swords + Armor

Or Hoplites > Everything. :p

I rather have each man be like a Average Stamina, 5 Attack, 10 Defense, 1 Armor (0 if nude), 20 Charge (guard break mode, encourage attacking and charging) and AP weapons would 75% attack and charge. You then go from there with accuracy, morale, and stamina adjustments.

[Lazy O]

A wicker shield is un breakable . You cannot even break a simple wicker chair with an axe let alone a huge reinforced tower shield . Wicker is tough stuff . The huge Persian sparas always fascinate me, they knew heavy infantry warfare before teh Romans :D

[gamegeek2]

Yeah but in this game, equipment gets more % of total stats than man. I rather have everything based on a slight difference in stats between similar units than the wildly varying stats currently. Atleast then you would know if you put unit x and unit y into battle against each other, unit x will probably win very slowly but if you use missile and other things then unit x probably won't win. So factions have more similar units but the slight differences can win battles with exploited correctly.

Right now its like:
Roman Swords + Armor > Celtic Non AP + High Defense > Germanic AP + No Armor or Defense > Roman Swords + Armor

Or Hoplites > Everything. :p

I rather have each man be like a Average Stamina, 5 Attack, 10 Defense, 1 Armor (0 if nude), 20 Charge (guard break mode, encourage attacking and charging) and AP weapons would 75% attack and charge. You then go from there with accuracy, morale, and stamina adjustments.

That's actually quite close to what I have going for EBNOM right now. Each man has base 5 attack and 10 defense.

Compare EBNOM Gaisofulxo with Dugundiz:

type germanic infantry plegodai
dictionary germanic_infantry_plegodai ; Plegōðai (Germanic Commoner Infantry) (t=0)
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type General_1
soldier celtic_infantry_toutanacoi_plegodai, 55, 0, 1
officer ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -2
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation 0.8, 1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 9, 6, javelin_l, 40, 3, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 10 , 1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 7, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.33
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 1, 12, 5, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental 10, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1056, 264, 50, 70, 1056
ownership alemanni

type germanic infantry dugundiz
dictionary germanic_infantry_dugundiz ; Ðugunðiz (Germanic Retainer Infantry)
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type General_1
soldier germanic_infantry_dugundiz_tautaginai, 40, 0, 1.2
officer ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -2
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation 0.8, 1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 4, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 12, 12, javelin_h, 42, 3, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 10 , 1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 9, 12, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.33
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 2, 14, 5, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental 13, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1293, 323, 50, 70, 1293
ownership alemanni

(Note also that low acc javelins are given horrible accuracy in EBNOM, may even miss the formation at big distances!)