could a full stack of archers win against a full stack of hoplites?

[cowkiller]

hi all, have been thinking about this for a while now,

personally one of my favorite units are those archers - with fire arrows

in one of my last battles, an odd combonation between britons and greeks my briton army where very nearly owned, i had 3 units of archers 1 of hoplites and my general on his chariot

well they sent in there horses and my hoplites slaughtered them, after that i simply kept on firing at the hoplites, sent my general round the back and crushed them, rinsed and repreated and managed to somehow win the battle.


would love for someone to test this out and see the results

[ReluctantSamurai]

I have, on occasion, wiped out an all-hoplite army with archer-heavy forces. The trick is to skirmish them constantly, get them to turn and expose their flanks, then charge home with your infantry or cav. I had one epic battle (playing as Pontus) with a 12 unit stack of Greek hoplites, several of which were Armored Hoplites. I had something like 8 or 10 archers, 5 or 6 Eastern Infantry, and several Militia Cavalry along with my general. They were neutral at the time, and my force was shadowing their advance towards Sinope, hoping they would turn elsewhere. They attacked me to start the hostilities,and I figured I was toast. I figured to take as many with me as I could, so my garrison in Sinope could sally and finish them off.

By using hit-and-run tactics with my archers, I had the bulk of their army in the 'Very Tired' state chasing my skirmish line. The one thing good you can say about Eastern Infantry is that they move fast and with 120 men in a unit can overwhelm by numbers against a tired enemy. Between them and my general, I routed most of the enemy units, destroying half the army in the process. I never expected to win, and neither did the AI as I got a Heroic Victory and my general got a bunch of promotions!

[puklo]

I don't know, darlings, if this is relevant here--
I had a general's unit (Roman), moving alone, when it met a rebel army of 100 peasants and 30 hoplites. I wiped out the peasants, but my general's cavalry could do nothing against the hoplites. If only I had some archers...
Well, I was forced to withdraw and concede the battle lost. Maybe it's better if I had stuck to playing Amazons, and not Romans--at least, these ladies are excellent archers!
Mrreoww

[wumpus]

Yes, but here's a problem for you--what if you have already run out of arrows but you don't run out of enemies still standing? Hawooh.

[ReluctantSamurai]

If your skirmishers are in much better condition to melee, then you switch to melee. I've won battles in just that manner by getting the hoplites to chase me all around the map and get exhausted in doing so. If my archers are in the "Warmed Up" condition, or even "Winded", the fight will be about equal.

If you make pin cushions of the enemy with few losses, you can retreat from the battle, and repeat the whole thing again.....with far fewer enemy to shoot at

[Myth]

Archers and/or javelins to the back of a phalanx is about the only way to reasonably take them out early on on VH/VH where any sort of frontal charge means instant route or a dead general. Especially Spartans. Especially if they are defending a city.

[Garvanko]

Yes, but from the side or back or from a vantage point.

[wumpus]

Ah--now the trick is to induce the hoplites to expose a flank [and better if they expose their backs]. Maybe a decoy unit is in order to lure them to face one direction while the archers or javelins sneak on them from another direction. Maybe some light cavalry as decoy . . . ?

[ReluctantSamurai]

Much depends upon what kind of battle map you get. I'm not very impressed with RTW's cookie-cutter maps....most are the same...just shift a few hills around and place some ruin in the middle of the map, and there you are.

But occasionally, one runs across a well designed map that allows for setting traps and maneuver. On these you can have some fun...getting hoplites to expose their flanks is easy if you have some forest to hide in. Just show them a front to move towards, and keep your reserve to the flanks with fire-at-will off. Draw them forwards by constantly moving your frontal skirmishers back, and hit them when their flanks and rear are exposed.

[seleucid empire]

hey is this thread about EB or vanilla rtw?, cause in EB, the british faction's chariots are so op you can win with 3 levies and one-two chariot general against 15 units of midlander elites

[ReluctantSamurai]

Vanilla.

[Alrik]

What you need is Gallic Forresters, you can recruit them with 5 in experience and fairly decently upgraded weaponsand armour. when they are make a fullstack of them and take on what ever the heck you like. If the phalanx walk towards you it'll be shot to pieces and if it runs it will be only half so, but then you'll butcher it in close combat, because the forresters are as good as most infantry in close combat and with 2 silver chevrons straight out of the box they are more than that. they also fight with spears so they butcher any cavalry that tries to run them over.

So yes it can be done, at least with Gaul and in campaign, might be a totally different thing in multiplayer if you're given the same amount of gold (I imagine the upgrades you'd get more or less for free in the campaign will be very costly when you buy your units for multiplayer.)

[ReluctantSamurai]

So yes it can be done, at least with Gaul and in campaign

It can be done with any faction that can recruit archers. Obviously, some factions get better archers than others...Forester War Band, as mentioned...Germanic or Scythian Chosen archers...even a group of merc Cretan's.

The method is the same...skirmish with a main line, and strike from the flanks or rear with reserves. However.....if the full stack of hoplites happens to be Armored Hoplites or Spartans.......good luck! I've managed to make pin-cushions of Armored Hoplites once, in such a scenario. It wasn't a full stack (six or eight units, IIRC), and they were attempting to assault a group of five or six Cretans with three gold chevrons standing on a very, very high hill just outside Sardis. I didn't kill them all, and those that survived, routed.

[Cantemir]

If you used it well and making it stay away from the hoplites: YES!
If not, buy more hoplites!

[ReluctantSamurai]

If not, buy more hoplites

Ehhh, I hate to bring this up, but the whole point to the thread is fighting all archers against all hoplites

[Myth]

Actually I think that a full stack of Cretan Archers upgraded in a Hellenic temple of Artemis can probably slaughter anything that isn't Sacred Band, Spartans or Armoured Hoplites.