Community call to arms: Naval guide

[andrewt]

I believe auto-calc drastically underestimates the power of all ironclads. It's similar to what the Black Ship endured in vanilla Shogun. If you have one of those top of the line ships, you're better off fighting the battles directly.

[Sp4]

Can anyone comment on ships and auto-calc? Are there any ships which perform particularly well in auto-calc, or particularly badly? I've mainly been using the ... ah, nihon maru I think it's called. The biggest ship you can build in a single turn using the starting docks, it's got 16 guns and a similar name to a 12 gun ship. I'm not at my desktop and can't look the names up in the encyclopaedia, gah! They are ok, not that good but I haven't found anything better so far.

I noticed that the American ironclad is a bit poor in auto-calc. I sent a fleet with 1 ironclad and 4 copper hulled nihon marus(?), all at full health, against a 3 ship fleet of 12 gun wooden hulled marus(?). All of my cheap ships survived, the ironclad sunk, and I captured the enemy ships. Not so impressed considering how much that thing cost! The British and French ironclads seem to fare better.

In my experience, auto calculation seems to apply damage to your ships going by price, or size or whatever else there is that makes the biggest ship appear first on the unit scroll when you select a stack.

When you auto calc huge battles, it isn't unusual for a lot of large (first) ships to take a lot of damage or die, at least in my experience.

Also.. I think for what the ships can do.. the naval battle maps are far too small =S

[frogbeastegg]

Hmm, it may be worth testing some of the mid-range ships then. The ones which take 2 or 3 turns to build. I don't like naval battles in any of the games, and have previously managed to do better with auto-calc than I'm managing in FotS. I'm having to repair after every battle and that's not great when combined with the AI's habit of building loads of ships.

[Sp4]

At least repairing a navy no longer takes up a slot in your recruitment queue anymore.

I too rather dislike large naval engagements, I am absolutely horrible at them lol. In my current campaign, a friendly harbour came under blockade from a full stack fleet from our enemies and I decided to scrape togerther all my defensive navy and get rid of that stack..

I ended up attaking with 1 1/2 stacks of ships, consisting of 4 of the 200 crew frigates, a large number of ships in the medium range, with 70 something crew and a few gun and torpedoe boats.

The army power bar was hugely in my favour, at least 80:20 and the enemy had largely wooden hulls, while most of mine were copper plated..

I decided to fight it on the map anyways, because epic huge sea battle and all. I ended up nearly losing and only 4 of my ships survived that (3 medium and 1 heavy), the rest just diaf xD
The main problem with the battle imo was that (other than me being terrible at naval battles) the naval battle map is far too small to have 2 1/2 stacks of ships rampaging through it imo.

[quadalpha]

I think the naval battles are fundamentally flawed. They just copied the exact same mechanics from land battles. There needs to be a re-think about the kinds of decisions made by a naval commander in battle and how to convey those to the player, because they are not the same as those made by a land commander.

[Trithemius]

The absolute biggest problem with naval battles is that tactical events have a huge disconnect with strategic. I watched a proud enemy Kasuga-class gracefully sink beneath the waves in tactical battlespace - only to have it flee! No point in going in hard tactically and trying to sink or board enemy ships if the strategic results are random!

I rather like the way naval battles play out tactically now - but I simply cannot be bothered playing them out if the events of the battle bear so little resemblance to the strategic outcomes.

Anyway...
I mostly build Kasuga-class corvettes myself. Five of these make up my "fighting" squadrons for the early part of the game; and normally there is an admiral aboard racking up XP. I use squadrons of three gunboats for ferrying, exploration, and piracy. I also found, playing as the sole effective Imperial, that single gunboats could block the repair of ports most of the time which meant that the heavy squadrons only needed to come by and pound military ports into submission now and then. This proved very helpful as the Satsuma and trying to keep my trade lanes open and deny the enemy their trade income.

[Sp4]

It usually is not that random. It happens occasionally but most of the time, something that dies (sinks, burns and then sinks, surrenders or explodes) stays dead on the campaign map.

[Trithemius]

I reject the notion of my tactical genius being treated in such a cavalier fashion by mere mechanical processes even once! :P

[Sp4]

Well yes I see what you are saying but there are so many other things that need looking at =p

[andrewt]

Hmm, it may be worth testing some of the mid-range ships then. The ones which take 2 or 3 turns to build. I don't like naval battles in any of the games, and have previously managed to do better with auto-calc than I'm managing in FotS. I'm having to repair after every battle and that's not great when combined with the AI's habit of building loads of ships.

I have 2 roving stacks currently in my game (one had a 200-unit Kasuga, another 80-unit ship and 3 gunboats; the other has a 132-unit, an 80-unit and 3 gunboats). Both of these fleets are able to sink the 80-unit or so single ship stacks the AI likes to send to harass your ports and trading lines on autocalc while taking no damage. My generals were rank 4-5 already so I don't know if that affects it.

[Jungle Rhino]

I'm currently battling through a Legendary Chosu campaign and marching up Western Honshu has led to me fighting MANY naval battles. At first I had no idea what to do and would find myself struggling with the lack of pause in order to get all my ships pointing the right way and actually shooting at the enemy. But over time I have learned I think some quite effective tactics.

1. The Strategy Map - Knowing how to make your fleets work well on the strategy map is half the battle. The AI SPAMS ships - single ships, twos, threes, it is annoying having to fight all these battles so you want to autocalc but to autocalc you want a massive advantage but then the enemy will just run away... So you need to trap them - use single gunboats to do this. Move your battle fleet up to reinforcement range of the enemy, then launch the actual attack with a gunboat from an angle so that if the enemy flees they will hit the coast and stop moving. Doesn't always work and sometimes they just charge off in a random direction. The other approach to use is to go defensive and form a bottle neck. This often results in the AI ships 'piling up' nearby - if you can start your turn reasonably close then they can't flee far enough away to escape and you can run them down.


2. Ship Selection - I have experimented with most of the ships and I'll try and summarise each:
> Gunboat - primarily useful for Strategy map scouting/initialising battles and running down routing ships - can board enemy ships. PRO TIP: A single gunboat can usually destroy a heavily damaged (red) corvette in autocalc. Use them to run these down.

> Kanko - this ship only packs a measly 6 guns, and is one of the slowest - can not board ships. BUT it is in ALL my fleets because the cost and upkeep is half that of any other corvette and it is just as tough - it is the meat shield that takes up the position at the end of your line - you know the spot where each enemy ship fires their first volley when they turn? Use these guys they are expendable and cheap to repair.

> Kanrin - a real workhorse with 12 guns - can not board ships. I actually rarely use these - but they are very good value for money and reasonably small, good for somebody looking to save a few koku

> Kaiten - I think this is probably the best all rounder corvette, 14 guns and can board ships. The major thing going for this guy is that he is the biggest ship you can build in a single season, so great for emergencies.

> Kasuga - These things look dead sexy, and mount the most guns of any corvette, can board ships and are the fastest corvette in the game. Pretty much the Rolls Royce if you can afford them, big downside is the long recruitment time though.

> Kaiyo Maru - Frigate with tons o guns! These will form the centerpiece of your fleet until you can afford ironclads. Not terribly fast but mounts a huge number of guns that will decimate corvettes. Big downside is of course the price, upkeep for these on Legendary is close to 550 koku which is a lot.

A typical fleet for me will consist of a single Kaiyo Maru, supported by 1-2 Kasuga/Kaiten class corvettes, and usually 1-2 Kanko meatshields also. Finally a Gunboat will always be nearby acting as a strategy map scout.


3. Ammunition & Armour Types - I have not experiemented with this as much as I would have liked but I'll share my experiences so far:
> Solid Shot - default shot type, avoid at all costs

> Explosive Shot - research this ASAP as it will allow you to dominate early fleets of wooden ships - they will catch on fire or surrender very quickly. Remains effective even against copper plated hulls but of course slightly less so. Major drawback is the lack of range - and the AI knows this too - I've seen them try and get out of range which can cause you problems as you can only switch ammo types every 30s or so. Also - be wary of the AI using this against you - if you see them coming hard at you try and get away from them, especially if you are using AP.

> Armour Piercing Shot - this has been a life saver for me. The key thing with this is that it is super accurate, so you hit hard and often - it also goes right through the enemy ships - often starting fires in the process. This is my preferred shot type and is highly effective against Copper hulled - and still very good against wooden simply as it is more accuate at long range, which is where you want to be to avoid the enemy explosive shot.

> Wooden Hull - standard protection

> Copper Hull - slightly improved protection, hard to gauge the effect though - allegedly less likely to catch fire but I still see plenty of copper ships burning.

> Armoured Hull - I haven't managed to build any ships with this yet but I assume it would be pretty good.

Other key points about your hull is that you can see the damage state of this by the two bars at the bottom of your ship picture, and also visually by zooming in and looking at your ship. Be careful because a 'green' ship with high crew complement can still be carrying significant hull damage. From my experience once your hull bars dip into yellow you become vulnerable to explosion insta kills. So pull heavily damaged ships out of the line, or begin to repair them. Also if fighting a series of battles don't always line your ships up pointing to the left - or their right side will always be getting hits. Alternate the side of the your ships that you engage the enemy with.

[Sp4]

Yeah towards the later game, most of my fleets consist of Kaitens, Kasugas and 2-3 uh... frigates.