First Impressions?

[Madae]

With regards to gameplay, I appreciate that the game no longer penalizes you when developing/expanding your settlements. While some care is needed at the beginning, I have nearly fully developed all my older settlements without too much difficulty. On my second play through I will probably specialize more.

Yeah, the game definitely allows for more freedom and less micromanagement in that department. I'm ambivalent either way (having a food limit or not), but it's a relief not having to worry about it altogether.

I do find you have to play almost every naval battle or be prepared to lose an Ironclad or two needlessly. Also, I find that the AI sends a lot of small fleets to harass your harbours, fair enough though tiring to chase them all down. Can't seem to contain them.

I definitely noticed this as well. Sometimes I just can't bother to waste my time trying to destroy a single ship, even though I know there is a possibility I will cost myself a lot of men and cannons on a ship or two, and maybe even lose it. My only beef with the navy battles is that they are a lot slower than Empire, and ships seem a lot more unwieldy - you can definitely see and feel the difference between a smaller, lighter ship and a larger, heavier one.

On Normal the battles seem too easy with a modern army possessing say 4 cannons and a couple Gatling guns, but I suppose it should be. Not a big complaint as I shamefully just like expanding my empire slowly, micro-managing everything to death. Strong opposition is counter productive to all this business.

Another solid point - battles are pretty easy in this game when you carry a lot of artillery with you. However, if the AI utilized artillery more often, especially the later types, it would be a lot more difficult. I've fought a few battles where I was on the attacking end and was forced to march into their artillery - all I had were gatlings, so they had to be moved closer and I couldn't "persuade" the enemy to charge me since I was bombarding them with cannons. Unfortunately, even their wooden cannons were enough to take out both of my gatlings before they even got within range, and I took heavy losses before I even set up my line in front of them. I was able to win the battle since my troops were a lot more experienced and were better types, but I can see how the game would be a lot different if the AI carried more artillery.

I also find the agents a bit too powerful, and I am disappointed that my strong agents cannot thwart the actions of the opposition better than they seem to be doing. Pushing the frontline further east has resulted in a tonne of enemy agents killing a lot of my agents and generals. Next time I will endeavour to bring a lot more developed agents to the front. Geishas don't seem that useful to me. Foreign army trainers and your police agents are however very useful, at least to my gameplay style.

Like I said before, Geisha have a wonderful level 6 ability to increase your income across all provinces by 10% - that is a nice bonus, though I'm not sure if it stacks with multiple geisha. They're definitely not as evil as they were in vanilla (in regards to cutting everyone down in front of them through assassinations), but they still provide a lot of good bonuses. The morale bonus from Inspire Army is great, and the ability to "sabotage" an army is a nice addition. You can effectively use them and Ishen Ishi to cover all the abilities of a Shinobi, with the added bonus of increased morale when attached to an army. I didn't do the enchant thing much, but I can see how that would be effective too if you were really hard up for generals - AI is never in short supply.

I haven't had much trouble with assassinations on my agents. A few made attempts, but all my agents were maxed level and couldn't touch me. I utilized Ishen Ishi more than anything and took out everything in front of me with them anyway. Being able to assassinate, convert and create rebellions was an awesome benefit.

[Graphic]

Oh, OK. That seems more logical.

BTW, I've checked again and it was definetly not Edo and Tokyo in the victory conditions.

It names them by province not city. Tokyo (or Edo) is in Musashi, Kyoto is in Yamashiro.

[Peasant Phill]

It names them by province not city. Tokyo (or Edo) is in Musashi, Kyoto is in Yamashiro.

Oh, OK.
Nevermind then.

[andrewt]

My biggest first impression is that a lot of the borders of the provinces changed. On the main four islands that was there previously in Shogun 2 and RoTS, I only noticed 2 provinces that are new. However, the borders of just about every province has moved.

I didn't have time to actually play the game and mostly just looked at the tech trees and stats. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the highest tier buildings seem terrible this time around. I think the last gold mine upgrade, for example, is 10000 for a measly 300 additional wealth.

I started a game with Saga but am wondering about the unique units other factions have. Are there any limits to units like Tosa Riflemen and the Red/White/Black Hat infantry and so on?

[Madae]

My biggest first impression is that a lot of the borders of the provinces changed. On the main four islands that was there previously in Shogun 2 and RoTS, I only noticed 2 provinces that are new. However, the borders of just about every province has moved.

The map does seem slightly larger, not just in land mass, but more as if it is "zoomed in" more. There are several new, one province islands though, along with a Kyushu-esque (without a land route to the mainland) island on the other side of the map near the Date starting point.

I didn't have time to actually play the game and mostly just looked at the tech trees and stats. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the highest tier buildings seem terrible this time around. I think the last gold mine upgrade, for example, is 10000 for a measly 300 additional wealth.

I'm going off memory here, but I believe the primary "money-making" upgrade was 1700 -> 2100 or so. Still, you gotta look at it from the long term. Without a gold mine, a province really doesn't make crap to begin with. I had a town with a gold mine making 11,000+ a turn by itself, compared to the 1800 my fully developed capitol was making. There are also several different bonuses that lower the cost of constructing buildings.

I don't agree that "all high-tier buildings" are terrible. Gatlings come from the highest tier artilerry range, Imperial/Shogunate Guard troops from the highest tier infatry buildings, many craft buildings have two routes to develop (better single province, or bonuses faction-wide), etc etc. If you want to upgrade a town completely, you'll probably need a max level police station to keep public order up vs. modernisation.

I started a game with Saga but am wondering about the unique units other factions have. Are there any limits to units like Tosa Riflemen and the Red/White/Black Hat infantry and so on?

There are unique units for each faction, but probably not the ones you're looking for. Tosa did have one - I remember seeing them running around with some - but I was playing Satsuma, and only noticed that I had some "bear-head" infantry that were not quite as good as the second-best (compared to Imperial Guard) Imperial Infantry.

[andrewt]

The map does seem slightly larger, not just in land mass, but more as if it is "zoomed in" more. There are several new, one province islands though, along with a Kyushu-esque (without a land route to the mainland) island on the other side of the map near the Date starting point.

That would be Hokkaido, the second largest island in Japan.

I'm going off memory here, but I believe the primary "money-making" upgrade was 1700 -> 2100 or so. Still, you gotta look at it from the long term. Without a gold mine, a province really doesn't make crap to begin with. I had a town with a gold mine making 11,000+ a turn by itself, compared to the 1800 my fully developed capitol was making. There are also several different bonuses that lower the cost of constructing buildings.

I don't agree that "all high-tier buildings" are terrible. Gatlings come from the highest tier artilerry range, Imperial/Shogunate Guard troops from the highest tier infatry buildings, many craft buildings have two routes to develop (better single province, or bonuses faction-wide), etc etc. If you want to upgrade a town completely, you'll probably need a max level police station to keep public order up vs. modernisation.

I was talking more about the economic buildings rather than the military ones. Some previous CA games like Rome and Medieval 2 were notorious in that the first tier buildings like ports and markets gave huge bonuses but upgrading them were very expensive while providing marginal benefit. At first glance, I found some of the highest tier economic buildings to be very expensive while not looking like they provided much in the way of benefits. Of course, I don't have a game that is far enough yet to build them.

I was wondering if there's something to be said for only building the first 2-3 tiers of mines, factories or other buildings.

There are unique units for each faction, but probably not the ones you're looking for. Tosa did have one - I remember seeing them running around with some - but I was playing Satsuma, and only noticed that I had some "bear-head" infantry that were not quite as good as the second-best (compared to Imperial Guard) Imperial Infantry.

The bear heads come much earlier, though, no? Or at least, that's my theory on what CA intended for them to be upon looking at the tech tree. Tosa does have a unique light infantry unit that's better than the regular sharpshooters.

[Madae]

That would be Hokkaido, the second largest island in Japan.

Totally too lazy to wiki it.

I was wondering if there's something to be said for only building the first 2-3 tiers of mines, factories or other buildings.

I guess that depends on you more than anything. If I'm barely making it by with money in my game, I'll save up the first chance I get and dump it into a building that will increase my revenue. I know it won't pay off for 10+ turns (most buildings of that level take that long), but I'm usually involved in something else at the same time that is taking up my time, such as a war on any particular front. If you haven't made it to the point yet to gauge how much money you're making vs. how much it cost to build certain things, it may be harder to understand. In my case, I'm always looking to bump my economic buildings whenever I have a free moment, regardless of the cost, because I know in the future it will pay off.

Some craft buildings are not worth it though unless you really need it. Coal does provide income, but the primary bonus is for ships. Iron/Steel is for artillery. I only upgrade those if I need it. Silver and Gold mines I will always upgrade, because it is 100% income.

The bear heads come much earlier, though, no? Or at least, that's my theory on what CA intended for them to be upon looking at the tech tree. Tosa does have a unique light infantry unit that's better than the regular sharpshooters.

I believe they were the second to last tier, and came along with the first level of Imperial troops. At first glance, they weren't better than what I compared them to, but maybe I was looking at it wrong. I haven't seen a need for specialty troops like that, yet. The gold of an army is going to be with your artillery anyway, and whatever troops that you can put between them and the enemy will always be a good choice.

[andrewt]

Totally too lazy to wiki it.

I was in Hokkaido for a week last December. Totally worth it to invade just for the food.

[Madae]

I was in Hokkaido for a week last December. Totally worth it to invade just for the food.

Hah.

I totally did just because I could.

[Sp4]

After soem playing..

AI is just as useless as in every TW game.. game looks nice tho \o/

[econ21]

AI is just as useless as in every TW game..

Oh come on. STW and MTW had very good battlefield AI. As did S2TW. The strategic AI in those STW and S2TW was not too shabby either. I can't comment on FotS yet, as I haven't played it but let's avoid hyperbole.

[easytarget]

After soem playing..

AI is just as useless as in every TW game.. game looks nice tho \o/

If you're going to troll this thread, at least put some energy into it.

[Sp4]

What do I have to do in order to find it challenging? The only way the AI is somewhat challenging is if you give it huge advantages over the player units as well as reducing the player unit's base morale.. I know it is probably impossible to make a truly challenging AI at this time for a game like this but some of the things the AI does, no matter what the difficulty settings are just oO

Like they are so pointless and stupid.. you ask yourself how the guys making the AI had the idea of making it do things like this..

You win one battle, you have won them all, unless you are hilariously outnumbered.

I am not trying to troll anything, I just feel they could've done a bit better. The AI seriously isn't any better than it was in Empire/Napoleon, there is just as little diversity between different factions ever since those games but I guess that has something to do with the new games themselves and not with this expansion.

At least before Empire, fighting different factions was somewhat different every time =/

[Madae]

You know what's funny? Most battles I've fought, I would probably think the AI is pretty dumb too, because I set up my cannons, my line, my flank protection and my generals to cover it all with their "aura", and then the enemy just marches right in on me and I pulverize them every time.

But, every once in awhile, I fight a battle that is genuinely close, or I am the attacking army, and it's a fight I need to win. Now the tables are turned - he sets up his cannons, his line, his flank protection and his generals, and I'm forced to march to his line while taking a ton of cannon fire. When I get there, my line has been chewed up by cannons and now has to go toe-to-toe with his, probably more fresh, line. Those battles are a difficult win, but not by much.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is; the closer you get to modern day, the harder it is to make a TW game seem "fair". You either make cannons terrible (Empire), or you make cannons too damn good (FOTS). That's the technology of the age, and they rock. It's easy to make a Medieval or Rome or regular Shogun, because the units are pretty straight-forward and the whole thing just requires one great, big charge. With guns, you really start to see the disparity, because you really can't march one army into another army in a game like this and expect it to be fair for everyone.

Would you laugh if I said this game is not entirely historically accurate? Even Empire; I know the whole "gentleman's war" thing where they all lined up and fired at each other, but most armies actually had the good grace to wait for the enemy to set up before they started taking turns murdering eachother. In this game, you don't have to, and that's why it's pretty damn easy. That, and you have a faction with swords trying to out match a faction with guns. We've all seen the movie - it just doesn't happen. I mean, if you actually thought for a moment that a bunch of guys with swords could win a war against a bunch of guys with guns... I don't even know what to say.

[Graphic]

Madae is on point. The BAI doesn't seem so dumb when you're attacking a defending AI stack that is fully modern with artillery (which is the position you force the AI into 9 times out of 10). You get messed up pretty bad too. Its the way it should be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickett's_Charge

[Sp4]

Both sides have guns. I actually thought it might be interesting playing as Shogunate and only making melee and bow units ^^

Actually, thinking about it. I will probably just end up spamming unholy amounts of cheap, quick to recruit people with spears and bows.. Oh wait, that's what I did in Shogun 2 as well >_<

[Gregoshi]

We have passed beyond the "first impressions" stage. I'm going to close this thread. Please feel free to open up new threads for any specific aspects of the game you wish to discuss.