quest. reg. the traits/ancillaries documentation - and how to understand it..

[Kleitos]

i just try to dive deeper into the trait and ancillary system - and used from the main page https://www.europabarbarorum.com/features_traits.html the link to this very detailed information in HTML format.

downloaded it and its just overwhelming - again i must say how awesome this mod is! ..the longer i play with also always finding new things here in the forum, then try out in new campaigns - the more i admire the Team for this mod.

to my problem with it:
it takes so much time to comb through all that ..is that normal? (i mean the speed with which each site is build up) - or is there some trick that one can use this documentation like a normal (quick functioning) site. ..or did i do something wrong? (just extracted all into the same folder) ..i know i´m a real dummy with pc´s/software - ..but i really like to dive into this trait and ancillary system.

the other thing is the content itself: im interested in how to aquire certain ancillaries - like in my KH campaign now its 240BC, with 30grown male FM´s there is for instance nowhere a drillmaster, hetaira or a bodyguard...

in the description triggers / "aquire_drillmaster" for instance (very interesting for increasing movement) there is the condition:
<NoMoreAncillaries> < 1

how is that to understand ?

does it mean a FM may not have any ancillary to get the chance that a drillmaster shows up? ...because mostly when a FM come of age or a suitor marries a daughter - one ancillary is already in his retinue - so no chance for them to gain a drillmaster?.

..on the other hand this condition <NoMoreAncillaries> < 1 seem to apply for a lot of ancillaries i use to get all the time.
(..if it wouldn´t take soo long to get the information of the varying ancillaries)

the chance there with 3% seems of course not much, but a docter also have 5% chance - and they are widespread.


would be pleased if someone can enlighten me,
Kleitos

[FinnishedBarbarian]

Most likely <NoMoreAncillaries> < 1 means that FM can't have more than 1 ancillary to be able to acquire that (drillmaster) ancillary so those FM's who also receive tutor/powerful advisor at start can't get that one through normal means.

Oh and good thing that there's some EB fans out there who are as intrested in trait/ancillary system besides myself (or maybe everyone else has figured it out already).

[konny]

in the description triggers / "aquire_drillmaster" for instance (very interesting for increasing movement) there is the condition:
<NoMoreAncillaries> < 1

how is that to understand ?

It means that the Trait NoMoreAncillaries has to be < 1 (ie. has not been acquired by this character). This trait is acquired depending on the ammount of ancillaries already acquired (Trait NumAncillariesAcquired) and the Charisma of the character (Trait NaturalCharisma).

The reason why you never see most of the ancillaries in game is that there are some ancillaries that every character can acquire without any problems until they have amassed enough to have the trait NoMoreAncillaries firing.

the chance there with 3% seems of course not much, but a docter also have 5% chance - and they are widespread

3% is extremly high because this is working cumulative. Means it piles up each turn it fires. Say a character would be eligable for this trait/anc he would get an additional 3% each turn he does so (6% the 2nd, 9% the 3rd turn and so on). So after about 34 turns the character should have the trait by guarantee. This would be eight or nine years for the character. This means, a trait with a 3% chance but no other requirements would be held by each character older than 25 years.

[Kleitos]

@finishedBarbarian - well i didnt thought so much until now about that - just roleplayin as good as possible ..but after i just lately (shame on me - all the time before i just didnt know that) found here somewhere that ancillaries can be swapped ..and then i searched for this trait/ancillary documentation. ..to know how complex all this is and all the possibilities - that just doubles for me the fun. i find this trait/ancillary system just great.

but still - i can´t actually use this documentation ..technically. it takes up from 30" to more than a minute until some information shows up ..and there are so much traits, triggers, ancillaries ..much to browse if i want to compare. but with this speed it´s just annoying. ...can you use it without this problem??

@konny - ..sorry i dont get it ..maybe my weak english does its part..
do you mean that just means: the specific ancillary has not already acquired - if so, this condition apply anyway for all of them.

as long as not already 8 Ancillaries are in the retinue ..there should be the possibility to gain another one (theoretically ..mostly i range from just 3 to 6 as i remember)

thats all i found reg. drillmaster:

acquire_drillmaster
Condition <NoMoreAncillaries> < 1
Condition <DrillmasterAcquired> < 1
Condition not CultureType barbarian
3% Chance: 1 points in <AcquireDrillmaster>

drillmaster_has_been_acquired
Condition <AcquireDrillmaster> > 0
100% Chance: 2 points in <DrillmasterAcquired>
100% Chance: 1 points in <NumAncillariesAcquired>
50% Chance: 1 points in Disciplinarian
25% Chance: 1 points in Energetic
25% Chance: 1 points in Authoritarian
100% Chance: 1 points in <ForcedMarchingExpert>

(...again - its just annoying and hard to research or to copy something..)

all the acquire... conditions are build up in these two steps like this: first conditions to acquire and then "has been acquired".. but im confused anyway - those second step seem to me something which the ancillary affect after he joined his retinue or not?

for some other ancillaries i had the patience to look - and the condition <NoMoreAncillaries> < 1 seem to be very common. at least for the some common ancillaries i found the patience now to look after: like docter, chirurgeon, geographer.. there is always this condition.

if it is like finishedBarbarian´s suggestion: no FM with more than one Ancillary already can aquire this one (with this condition) ...this sounds reasonable for me - but i wonder why i never got a drillmaster but mass of docters, clerks and what not.

could it be a solution to take away all ancillaries but one for a chosen FM and see if he gets one?.

..well yes, i guess these percentages must be working somehow cumulative ..or else we hardly get those widespread ones.

[konny]

@konny - ..sorry i dont get it ..maybe my weak english does its part..

I can also explain it in German, even though this would cause me trouble with the other members. So let's give it another try in English:

do you mean that just means: the specific ancillary has not already acquired - if so, this condition apply anyway for all of them.

No. This refers to a Trait which is called "NoMoreAncillaries". It has nothing to do with the hard-coded function that you cannot acquire more than 8 ancillaries.

Let me explain it with your other examples:

acquire_drillmaster
Condition <NoMoreAncillaries> < 1
Condition <DrillmasterAcquired> < 1
Condition not CultureType barbarian
3% Chance: 1 points in <AcquireDrillmaster>

AcquireDrillmaster is a Trait. When a character acquires that trait in export_descr_character_traits (short: EDCT) he will be given the ancillary Drillmaster in export_descr_ancillaries (short: EDA). You can use a couple of things as conditions in EDA for acquisition of ancillaries. Here having the trait acquire_drillmaster is used as condition in order to acquire the ancillary Drillmaster. I could, for example, also say that he has to have the Trait GoodCommander with at least level 2. This would then read like:

Condition Trait GoodCommander > 1

or I say he has to have at least three command stars:

Condition Attribute Command > 2




Now let's look again at the conditions to acquire the Trait AcquireDrillmaster:

Condition <NoMoreAncillaries> < 1
Condition <DrillmasterAcquired> < 1
Condition not CultureType barbarian

NoMoreAncillaries and DrillmasterAcquired are other traits, while "< 1" simply means you don't have them (=less than level 1). We know NoMoreAncillaries from above as a technical trait: your character gets that when he has a certain ammount of ancillaries, depending on his charisma. So the line

Condition <NoMoreAncillaries> < 1

reads you can get it when you don't already have "quite a lot" of ancillaries. It doesn't realy say anything about the character who is going to acquire that ancillary. DrillmasterAcquired in fact is another technical trait, more on that below.

Leaves the line

Condition not CultureType barbarian

as the only true condition. So, this reads: you have a 3% chance to acquire the trait AcquireDrillmaster (what in the end will make you acquire the Drillmaster) when you are not a barbarian. And given that this is cumulative, everyone has quite a high chance to get it. - unless he already has so many other ancillaries that the trait NoMoreAncillaries has fired.

What's next?

drillmaster_has_been_acquired
Condition <AcquireDrillmaster> > 0
100% Chance: 2 points in <DrillmasterAcquired>
100% Chance: 1 points in <NumAncillariesAcquired>
50% Chance: 1 points in Disciplinarian
25% Chance: 1 points in Energetic
25% Chance: 1 points in Authoritarian
100% Chance: 1 points in <ForcedMarchingExpert>

Condition <AcquireDrillmaster> > 0

reads that the Trait AcquireDrillmaster has been acquired. This trait will give him the respective ancillary; but even when it wouldn't do so the following conditions will turn true:

100% Chance: 2 points in <DrillmasterAcquired>

That's the technical trait from above. You remember, you only got the trait AcquireDrillmaster when you didn't had the Trait DrillmasterAcquired, what in the end simply means you only get one when you didn't already had one. (don't worry why that's two points)

100% Chance: 1 points in <NumAncillariesAcquired>

This one adds one point to the Trait NumAncillariesAcquired what in the end leads to the trait NoMoreAncillaries firing, what will prevent you from acquisition of other ancillaries.

50% Chance: 1 points in Disciplinarian
25% Chance: 1 points in Energetic
25% Chance: 1 points in Authoritarian
100% Chance: 1 points in <ForcedMarchingExpert>

These are additional "bonus" traits you get for having acquired a drillmaster: Disciplinarian with a 50% (= 1:1) chance, Energetic and Authoritarian with a 25% chance and ForcedMarchingExpert with a 100% (=guaranteed) chance.

When you character already has a level in one of these traits he will then acquire an additional level in that trait (provided it has more than one level). When you character already has a socalled Antitrait to one of these traits, for example Lazy as antitrait to Energetic, he will lose a level in that antitrait, here he will no longer be lazy.

[Kleitos]

thanks konny - slowly i think i´ll get it. ..no, of course - english here is fine - hope my following here is understandable.

noMoreAncillaries is already (a kind of a) trait?. ...thought until now it´s just a condition. ..if i got it right now: apart from the hard-coded 8 ancillaries limit, <noMoreAncillaries> apply in a case when, dependent of his Charisma, a FM just can´t get any more. ..even when he only has two.?
..but how many ancillaries are granted to him is for me as Player just a hidden secret.?

..so if i make use of swapping around ancillaries and try to give one FM an ancillary and he has acquired this trait <noMoreAncillaries> >1 (not <1) then i can try as much as i would - the number of his retinues will stay as it is.?

..i just started to make use of this - so sooner or later i will have one where i can´t add more Ancillaries (although he has definitely less then 8).

strangely regarding the drillmaster ancillary - in these conditions are no real conditions as i understand them (like for instance good commander or so ..the only real condition is the one: not CultureType barbarian. ..so it seems to me its just a random thing and all greek FM´s actually are able to get this ancillary ...no matter if he´s a proven commander, Governor or just a some Dude.
..so more a matter of luck.

you seem to have a lot of insight in this trait/ancillary system - and i thank you for your detailed description.

you also seem to use this documentation - i must ask you again about the speed of it. ..actually i just cant use it - interesting as it is.. if i try to compare just 3 traits or triggers ...it takes up from 5 to 10 minutes - of course that ruins the fun to make a research there.

is this only a problem i have - or is it known.?

[konny]

noMoreAncillaries is already (a kind of a) trait?

fixed it.

..thought until now it´s just a condition. ..if i got it right now: apart from the hard-coded 8 ancillaries limit, <noMoreAncillaries> apply in a case when, dependent of his Charisma, a FM just can´t get any more. ..even when he only has two.?

You should check the respective files. I think this makes it a bit more easyer to understand:

export_descr_character_traits.txt:

;------------------------------------------
Trait NumAncillariesAcquired
    Characters family
    Hidden

    Level One_Ancillary
        Description Hidden_desc
        EffectsDescription Hidden_effects_desc
        Threshold  1

    Level Two_Ancillaries
        Description Hidden_desc
        EffectsDescription Hidden_effects_desc
        Threshold  2

    Level Three_Ancillaries
        Description Hidden_desc
        EffectsDescription Hidden_effects_desc
        Threshold  3

    Level Four_Ancillaries
        Description Hidden_desc
        EffectsDescription Hidden_effects_desc
        Threshold  4

    Level Five_Ancillaries
        Description Hidden_desc
        EffectsDescription Hidden_effects_desc
        Threshold  5

    Level Six_Ancillaries
        Description Hidden_desc
        EffectsDescription Hidden_effects_desc
        Threshold  6

    Level Seven_Ancillaries
        Description Hidden_desc
        EffectsDescription Hidden_effects_desc
        Threshold  7

    Level Eight_Ancillaries
        Description Hidden_desc
        EffectsDescription Hidden_effects_desc
        Threshold  8


;------------------------------------------
Trait NoMoreAncillaries
    Characters family
    Hidden

    Level No_More_Ancillaries
        Description Hidden_desc
        EffectsDescription Hidden_effects_desc
        Threshold  1

and these are the respective triggers:
[code]
;------------------------------------------
; Turning off ancillary acquisition to cut down on "ancillary farming"
;------------------------------------------
Trigger OneAncillary_at_Start
WhenToTest CharacterTurnStart

Condition AgentType = family
and Trait NumAncillariesAcquired < 1

Affects NumAncillariesAcquired 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Cha1_NoMoreAncils
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd

Condition Trait NaturalCharisma = 1
and Trait NumAncillariesAcquired = 3

Affects NoMoreAncillaries 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Cha2_NoMoreAncils
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd

Condition Trait NaturalCharisma = 2
and Trait NumAncillariesAcquired = 4

Affects NoMoreAncillaries 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Cha3_NoMoreAncils
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd

Condition Trait NaturalCharisma = 3
and Trait NumAncillariesAcquired = 5

Affects NoMoreAncillaries 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Cha4_NoMoreAncils
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd

Condition Trait NaturalCharisma = 4
and Trait NumAncillariesAcquired = 6

Affects NoMoreAncillaries 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Cha5_NoMoreAncils
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd

Condition Trait NaturalCharisma = 5
and Trait NumAncillariesAcquired = 7

Affects NoMoreAncillaries 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Cha6_NoMoreAncils
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd

Condition Trait NaturalCharisma = 6
and Trait NumAncillariesAcquired = 8

Affects NoMoreAncillaries 1 Chance 100[/quote]

While also each ancillary you acquire gives one point in NumAncillariesAcquired:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger normaldruid_has_been_acquired
  WhenToTest CharacterTurnStart

    Condition Trait AcquireDruid = 1

  Affects DruidAcquired  2  Chance  100
  Affects NumAncillariesAcquired  1  Chance  100

..but how many ancillaries are granted to him is for me as Player just a hidden secret.?

you could count his ancillaries for the start.

..so if i make use of swapping around ancillaries and try to give one FM an ancillary and he has acquired this trait <noMoreAncillaries> >1 (not <1) then i can try as much as i would - the number of his retinues will stay as it is.?

Ah, that's an intereseting question: no. These traits NumAncillariesAcquired and NoMoreAncillaries don't really "know" how many ancillaries you have. They are just called for when ancillaries are acquired. So when a character has more or less than that the traits wouldn't work anymore.

so it seems to me its just a random thing and all greek FM´s actually are able to get this ancillary ...no matter if he´s a proven commander, Governor or just a some Dude.
..so more a matter of luck.

when that's the correct yes. I only have the EDCT of EBII on this computer and there the code to acquire the drillmaster is a bit more complex. No idea how it works in EBI.

But yes, there is too much randomness and "sit around in town with..." in the triggers of EBI. That needs to be fixed.

you also seem to use this documentation

No I am checking the txt file with a text editor, what of course is extremly fast.

[Kleitos]

ok - thanks very much - the respective files, this makes it easier to understand. and yes - much quicker!

..alone one has to know (or the idea) where in the files the specific thing is - the clarity of the documentation would be a big help if not so slow when you click on something.

but im gonna browse the files though.