2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[a completely inoffensive name]

Ah yes of course because republican ideals revolve completely and utterly around allowing the Constitution to be altered. Interesting you used Mr. Jefferson who was essentially the father of Americans States rights and small central government.... whose principles does that mirror??? Ah yes the GOP.

Except it doesn't, unless doing so helps them. This is the delusion that you need to crack. States rights become important for the GOP, until they are in power on the Federal level. Tell me again why Ron Paul and his young libertarians are isolated and delegated as resident "crackpots" by the GOP leadership and mainstream. I can think of no one else more in favor of states rights and following a narrow view of the Constitution.

Such gems as

The democracy will cease to exist
when you take away from those
who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

This is not a Jefferson quote, it does not appear in his works.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_...#Misattributed

It is incumbent on every
generation to pay its own debts as it goes.
A principle which if acted on would save
one-half the wars of the world.

You act as if the GOP are the only ones who care about the debt. Yawn.

My reading of history convinces me
that most bad government results from too much
government.

My research tells me that this is not a Jefferson quote either.
http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...ment-quotation

No free man shall ever be debarred
the use of arms.

You forgot the end of that quote, the most important part. "...within his own lands."

Very impressed with your go at trying to humiliate me though.

Are you impressed with my second go? Knocking 2.5 out of 4 is pretty good.

2. Political thought has been through some changes of course.... did I say they were mirror images of each other though? No, I said they were in line. There are differences and alterations of course.

More differences than similarities. Either way, no one advocates for a non republican style of government any more than libertarians advocate for no taxation.

The GOP is not inspired or following the line of republican ideals. They are following the money. Same as every politician.

3. Well we went over what I think of drawing individual quotes and the overall message Thomas Jefferson would likely have wished for America.
Doesn't mean the ideal have changed.

No we didn't because you can't even give real quotes from the man. You just hear pretty words from some internet liar on the other side of the country and it made you more than happy to dig no deeper.

[Centurion1]

Except it doesn't, unless doing so helps them. This is the delusion that you need to crack. States rights become important for the GOP, until they are in power on the Federal level. Tell me again why Ron Paul and his young libertarians are isolated and delegated as resident "crackpots" by the GOP leadership and mainstream. I can think of no one else more in favor of states rights and following a narrow view of the Constitution.



This is not a Jefferson quote, it does not appear in his works.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_...#Misattributed


You act as if the GOP are the only ones who care about the debt. Yawn.



My research tells me that this is not a Jefferson quote either.
http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...ment-quotation



You forgot the end of that quote, the most important part. "...within his own lands."


Are you impressed with my second go? Knocking 2.5 out of 4 is pretty good.


More differences than similarities. Either way, no one advocates for a non republican style of government any more than libertarians advocate for no taxation.

The GOP is not inspired or following the line of republican ideals. They are following the money. Same as every politician.



No we didn't because you can't even give real quotes from the man. You just hear pretty words from some internet liar on the other side of the country and it made you more than happy to dig no deeper.

A. Ron Paul is a crackpot.
B. I'm talking about party ideals not the men who twist party ideals for their own agendas on either side of the aisle.

Fine, you want more quotes?

A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circlue of our felicities.


I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.


I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.


My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.


My point is that I could find a thousand more quotes that probably support me and that Jefferson wasn't the best man to support your defense what with his being a gentleman farmer and his dream of an american run by state governments and consisting of yeoman farmers.

[Strike For The South]

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Well shit. That settles it.

You know what my favorite thing to do is? Listen to the farmers bitch and moan about welfare queens, then I ask to see their government checks for Ag subs, they pucker up like an armadillo in July.

Does anyone care to look up how much in gov't receipts the rice farmers in Pauls district gets? It was top 20 in the country last time I checked.

Make no mistake, small gov't is a pipe dream payed lip service by the GOP to solidify votes and convey an easily digestible message.

[a completely inoffensive name]

A. Ron Paul is a crackpot.
B. I'm talking about party ideals not the men who twist party ideals for their own agendas on either side of the aisle.

Fine, you want more quotes?

A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circlue of our felicities.


I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.


I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.


My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.


My point is that I could find a thousand more quotes that probably support me and that Jefferson wasn't the best man to support your defense what with his being a gentleman farmer and his dream of an american run by state governments and consisting of yeoman farmers.

You re-used one of the previous quotes, which turned out not to be a legitimate quote at all. But let's pretend that it's 1991 and Google isn't around yet and get back to the heart of the matter.

My argument wasn't that Jefferson was a modern day liberal. You made a call to authority towards the wise sages known as the "Founding Fathers" and the Constitution "they" wrote. You asserted a link between the ideals of the Constitution and the Republican Party. The point was that I showed you the words of one of the Founding Fathers warning us not to treat the Constitution as a modern day bible. Thus, we should not care which party is "in line" with the Founders. I'm exposing the hollow talking point and following up with a relevant Jefferson quote yet again.

The earth belongs to the living, not to the dead.

The Constitution is not perfect. Discussions on the American government should be based around people courageous enough to debate on the merits of what the Founders said and implemented and not based around the degree to which we try to imitate them in life and spirit.

Also if Ron Paul is a crackpot, than Ayn Rand is a garbage writer on the same level as Stephenie Meyer. And I am fine with that conclusion.

[Lemur]

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Man, you are full of fake quotes! The earliest attribution of that line is from 1913, brutha; the first attempt to link it to T. Jefferson was 1950. That's almost as sloppy a fake as the invented Lincoln quote my rightwing friends keep posting on Facebook.

If you're going to show up to a quote fight, at least check your sources. This is kinda ... discrediting ... and what's worse, ACIN already pointed this out, and then you said it again.

Maybe you're living in an alternative universe of your own construction, where all of the Founding Fathers were Republican fantasy sexbots, quoting Ayn Rand and the National Review in between enshrining the Prosperity Gospel as the national religion and clearly writing into the Constitution that ALL TAXES ARE TEH BAD.

[Kralizec]

Fine, you want more quotes?

Quotes suck- or at least, the very short ones do. I could selectively quote bits of texts from James Madison to discredit democracy and argue that the USA was never intended to be one. The catch being that in those days "democracy" was understood to mean direct democracy only. When a short quote is both real and not ripped out of context they're often no more than aphorisms that give no insight in the author's reasoning behind it.