Economy Observations, Tips, Etc.

[andrewt]

How about the industry chain?

I'm at around turn 50 in my game and haven't bothered yet. I've been fully modernized for quite a few turns now but haven't researched the +2 happiness/repression techs in the 3rd or fourth tier because there seem to be better stuff to research. I've been mostly building inns (market line) and police stations in my provinces. The next unlock is pretty expensive at this point in the game so I'm upgrading ports, specialty buildings and inns first. Somebody who's better at math could crunch the numbers more to see if the tax increase is actually worth it versus upgrading inns.

[Madae]

Somebody who's better at math could crunch the numbers more to see if the tax increase is actually worth it versus upgrading inns.

Which are we talking about here? Craft buildings? Or Inns? Mines? For the latter two, it's always worth it if you're willing to spend the time to wait for the payoff. You say mines are bad, and I say they are great. I had one province making 13000 a turn thanks to its gold mine. A 500 gold increase for 10,000 gold pays itself off in 20 turns, but this is not counting the increase in taxes from a flat percent bonus to your income. The Geisha 10% tax bonus will turn 13000 into 14300. You will see a bigger payoff in that regard depending on the amount the province makes by itself.

For the former (craft buildings), that will depend solely on your trade routes, which can swap hands and change at any given moment during a game. You will get something from Britain, France and the US, but I don't have solid numbers on those.

With 4 "years" (in reality, like 40 turns) from the end of the game, I was making 25000 gold a turn, and had so much money I couldn't spend it all. All I really did was get my towns up to level 2, build a station and a market, and then upgrade whatever trade resource they had, in addition to building a port.

[Nelson]

A 500 gold increase for 10,000 gold pays itself off in 20 turns, but this is not counting the increase in taxes from a flat percent bonus to your income.

Are you referring to a provincial wealth increase of 500 or an actual tax revenue increase, which is a fraction of the wealth? With taxes at 30% the revenue on 500 wealth would be 150, would it not?

[andrewt]

Which are we talking about here? Craft buildings? Or Inns? Mines? For the latter two, it's always worth it if you're willing to spend the time to wait for the payoff. You say mines are bad, and I say they are great. I had one province making 13000 a turn thanks to its gold mine. A 500 gold increase for 10,000 gold pays itself off in 20 turns, but this is not counting the increase in taxes from a flat percent bonus to your income. The Geisha 10% tax bonus will turn 13000 into 14300. You will see a bigger payoff in that regard depending on the amount the province makes by itself.

For the former (craft buildings), that will depend solely on your trade routes, which can swap hands and change at any given moment during a game. You will get something from Britain, France and the US, but I don't have solid numbers on those.

With 4 "years" (in reality, like 40 turns) from the end of the game, I was making 25000 gold a turn, and had so much money I couldn't spend it all. All I really did was get my towns up to level 2, build a station and a market, and then upgrade whatever trade resource they had, in addition to building a port.

I think province income is revenue * (tax rate*(1-administrative costs)). When I say mines are bad, I meant in comparison to other buildings. Right now, it costs around 5k to upgrade my gold mine from 800 to 1400 wealth. In comparison, upgrading a port to a trade port adds 700 wealth and assorted other bonuses for around 3k. Upgrading inn to market is around 2k for 360 to 720 and upgrading from 720 to 1260 is around 3k. These have other bonuses as well.

Upgrading the city line increases the tax rate in addition to giving an extra build slot. I was wondering how big of an increase that would be compared to upgrading something else.

[Madae]

I think province income is revenue * (tax rate*(1-administrative costs)). When I say mines are bad, I meant in comparison to other buildings. Right now, it costs around 5k to upgrade my gold mine from 800 to 1400 wealth. In comparison, upgrading a port to a trade port adds 700 wealth and assorted other bonuses for around 3k. Upgrading inn to market is around 2k for 360 to 720 and upgrading from 720 to 1260 is around 3k. These have other bonuses as well.

Apples to oranges. You're comparing a first level upgrade (port [no income] -> trading port [700]), where a trading port would be the first level of the income side, to a second level upgrade (800 for first level gold mine -> 1400 for second). How much is it to build a first level gold mine that goes from 0 -> 800? Right off the bat it's making more than a port. Knowing how much that first level is is important information.

I also forget if that trade port can be upgraded further for more income. It would be worthwhile to know what the cost of a trading port -> next level would be, and how much of an income increase that is, which is what you should be comparing that 800 -> 1400 to.

The 720 -> 1260 is another argument altogether. You're sacrificing potential income for other bonuses, which is all fine and dandy, but a gold mine is pure income. The 240 disparity isn't much, but that's what you're paying for when you pay that extra 2k. However, we would also need to know what levels those are. A gold mine has the potential to make, I believe, 2100 (for somewhere between 10-15k). The 1260 is the max level inn or whatever, correct?

Upgrading the city line increases the tax rate in addition to giving an extra build slot. I was wondering how big of an increase that would be compared to upgrading something else.

From a purely economical standpoint, there isn't a single thing that can make more money than a gold mine, trade ports and trade notwithstanding.

Are you referring to a provincial wealth increase of 500 or an actual tax revenue increase, which is a fraction of the wealth? With taxes at 30% the revenue on 500 wealth would be 150, would it not?

You lost me - math is not my strong point. I was going off a base value, whatever that is, that if you spend 10000 for a revenue increase of 500, it would take 20 turns for that 500 (once the building was completed) to pay off the 10000 by itself. Percent bonuses would factor into it afterwards, such as the 10% bonus from the geisha, which would make it 550 (and 18 turns instead of 20). This is, of course, not counting the other income the province may be making, which would probably benefit more from the 10% as a whole.

I have always assumed that if you spent money to increase the income by 500, that was after taxes, not before. In other words, if that 500 is being taxed and you're really only getting 150, then why go to all the trouble to confuse the builder and just say its a 150 increase?

[Nelson]

I have always assumed that if you spent money to increase the income by 500, that was after taxes, not before. In other words, if that 500 is being taxed and you're really only getting 150, then why go to all the trouble to confuse the builder and just say its a 150 increase?

Because the 150 is a variable outcome. The tax rate is adjustable. At a 20% rate the income from 500 wealth would be 100. At 40%, 200.

[Madae]

Because the 150 is a variable outcome. The tax rate is adjustable. At a 20% rate the income from 500 wealth would be 100. At 40%, 200.

I'm looking at it from 500 as the base, and the 20% is added on to it. 20% = 100 (600), 40% = 200 (700). The tax is going to you, not to someone else. You're assuming someone is taxing you, when in reality you're taxing them from whatever the base value is + the tax bonus.

This is easily solved if you just load up a game, take note of what a province makes, build something, and then see what the total amount would be after it's completed.

Or maybe you're agreeing with me and I'm just confused. Now that I look at it, I think that's the case. The way you worded it was confusing.

if you spend 10000 for a revenue increase of 500, it would take 20 turns for that 500 (once the building was completed) to pay off the 10000 by itself. Percent bonuses would factor into it afterwards, such as the 10% bonus from the geisha, which would make it 550 (and 18 turns instead of 20).

Province tax bonus (the global setting in finance) would be afterwards as well. So, yes, it would pay off sooner if you factor in everything.

[andrewt]

I'm looking at it from 500 as the base, and the 20% is added on to it. 20% = 100 (600), 40% = 200 (700). The tax is going to you, not to someone else. You're assuming someone is taxing you, when in reality you're taxing them from whatever the base value is + the tax bonus.

This is easily solved if you just load up a game, take note of what a province makes, build something, and then see what the total amount would be after it's completed.

Or maybe you're agreeing with me and I'm just confused. Now that I look at it, I think that's the case. The way you worded it was confusing.

No, the way it works is that if the tax rate is 20%, you're only receiving 20% of the 500 wealth. 500 is what is added to the economy. What you tax is what you get as income. I believe 30% is the base and the % from towns and from geishas are added in, which makes them pretty potent.

Let's say you have enough provinces that your administrative expense is 25%. If you're upgrading a gold mine from 800 to 1400 wealth, you're getting an extra 600*(30% tax rate*(1-25% administrative expense)) = 135 in tax income every turn.

Now imagine that town with the 800 wealth gold mine also has meagre soil (1.3 multiplier) tenant fields (900 wealth), an inn (360 wealth) and 70 in town wealth. The total economy would be 800 + 1.3*900 + 360 + 70 = 2400 and the tax income would be 2400*(30%(1-25%)) = 540 per turn.

Upgrading that to a large town would change it to 2400*(32*(1-25%)) = 576 per turn. The extra 36 is clearly inferior to the 135 from upgrading the gold mine, even after taking into account that the large town upgrade is around half the price. Of course, the more you upgrade the inn, farms and mine, the better the large town upgrade becomes.

[andrewt]

Apples to oranges. You're comparing a first level upgrade (port [no income] -> trading port [700]), where a trading port would be the first level of the income side, to a second level upgrade (800 for first level gold mine -> 1400 for second). How much is it to build a first level gold mine that goes from 0 -> 800? Right off the bat it's making more than a port. Knowing how much that first level is is important information.

I also forget if that trade port can be upgraded further for more income. It would be worthwhile to know what the cost of a trading port -> next level would be, and how much of an income increase that is, which is what you should be comparing that 800 -> 1400 to.

The 720 -> 1260 is another argument altogether. You're sacrificing potential income for other bonuses, which is all fine and dandy, but a gold mine is pure income. The 240 disparity isn't much, but that's what you're paying for when you pay that extra 2k. However, we would also need to know what levels those are. A gold mine has the potential to make, I believe, 2100 (for somewhere between 10-15k). The 1260 is the max level inn or whatever, correct?

I'm playing as the Saga faction and I captured the gold mine early on. I'm fairly certain that all the province specialties already come with the first level built in. The only decision is whether to upgrade that gold mine ASAP or upgrade other stuff first.

Whenever I build something, the formula I use is marginal benefit/marginal cost. The gold mine tops out at 2k, but it already starts at 800. Basically, you're spending 5k to add 600 and another 10k to add another 600. If I have 5k, I have the choice of either spending it all to upgrade an 800 wealth gold mine to 1400 or spend 4k to upgrade 2 inns to 2 markets. That's upgrading 2 buildings that give 360 to both of them giving 720 + 2 wealth to town growth each turn.

I'm not yet at the stage in my game that I can upgrade everything. And whenever I think of upgrading something, there's always been something that offers more bang for the buck than upgrading that gold mine. As Saga, the three very fertile lands nearby are just insane. I rushed to commercial farming (1400 wealth) on all three of them immediately. I haven't even researched the last upgrade yet but they're already insane. Very fertile means all three are giving 4200 (1400*3) wealth.

[Madae]

I'm playing as the Saga faction and I captured the gold mine early on. I'm fairly certain that all the province specialties already come with the first level built in. The only decision is whether to upgrade that gold mine ASAP or upgrade other stuff first.

Whenever I build something, the formula I use is marginal benefit/marginal cost. The gold mine tops out at 2k, but it already starts at 800. Basically, you're spending 5k to add 600 and another 10k to add another 600. If I have 5k, I have the choice of either spending it all to upgrade an 800 wealth gold mine to 1400 or spend 4k to upgrade 2 inns to 2 markets. That's upgrading 2 buildings that give 360 to both of them giving 720 + 2 wealth to town growth each turn.

I'm not yet at the stage in my game that I can upgrade everything. And whenever I think of upgrading something, there's always been something that offers more bang for the buck than upgrading that gold mine. As Saga, the three very fertile lands nearby are just insane. I rushed to commercial farming (1400 wealth) on all three of them immediately. I haven't even researched the last upgrade yet but they're already insane. Very fertile means all three are giving 4200 (1400*3) wealth.

Balancing modernisation is part of it too, I guess. Everything you do is not out of the norm of what I would do. I typically have all my cities at level 2 and build an inn and station. There probably is a way to "min-max" your economy, but I go for what is just acceptable to me at the time, not what is necessarily the better choice. Again, math is not my favorite subject, and my brain is tickled by big numbers, so gold mines are naturally something I would gravitate towards simply because it sounds like money. But again, it may not be the best. If it's important to know exactly what the best way to go about doing things is, then you'll probably have to find someone else to go into that.

On the other hand, it's easier to defend one great province than several mediocre provinces. I can think of quite a few different reasons why I would focus on one particular settlement as opposed to several.