Things Strike Doesn't Understand About Modern Literature

[Greyblades]

Explain to me how Rob armour is spelled to make it lighter but stronger and I'll happily shut up. As it is, so far as we have been lead to believe, it was made by a mundane smith at Winterfell.

Well I dont think rob has been portrayed as fighting in heavy armour for an extended length of time, I always assumed he spent most of the time sitting on a horse sending out orders and not exherting himself, a 14 year old would probably be able to last for hours in heavy armour if all he did was ride a horse.

[Centurion1]

phillips such nonsense....

im 20 (as of yesterday) and i carry full modern combat kit along with my ruck all the time which in total likely weighs much more than plate armor did. as well armor harness' then were impressive pieces of physics as they distributed weight shockingly well. knights were not the turtles people like to say they were and there are accounts of fully plated knights jumping into their destriers saddles.

as well as a twenty year old i weigh 195 pounds at 6'1'' and can bench 200+ pounds, squat 375 pounds deadlift 300 pounds and hang clean 185 pounds multiple times. so yeah a boy my age is more than capable of having the strength and endurance of a older man. in all honesty i was even bigger in high school when i was 16-17 from football though i had far less endurance. when i was fourteen entering high school i weighed in at 170 pounds and was already 6' and my parents did not allow me to lift weights until i did high school sports.

and then there are 17-18 year olds in western armed forces who are physical specimens and run around the modern battle field in full kit and fight.

the fact you think that men cannot fight until 21 years of age is absurd.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

phillips such nonsense....

im 20 (as of yesterday) and i carry full modern combat kit along with my ruck all the time which in total likely weighs much more than plate armor did. as well armor harness' then were impressive pieces of physics as they distributed weight shockingly well. knights were not the turtles people like to say they were and there are accounts of fully plated knights jumping into their destriers saddles.

as well as a twenty year old i weigh 195 pounds at 6'1'' and can bench 200+ pounds, squat 375 pounds deadlift 300 pounds and hang clean 185 pounds multiple times. so yeah a boy my age is more than capable of having the strength and endurance of a older man. in all honesty i was even bigger in high school when i was 16-17 from football though i had far less endurance. when i was fourteen entering high school i weighed in at 170 pounds and was already 6' and my parents did not allow me to lift weights until i did high school sports.

and then there are 17-18 year olds in western armed forces who are physical specimens and run around the modern battle field in full kit and fight.

the fact you think that men cannot fight until 21 years of age is absurd.

1. You're 20, not 14 - you're also not on a medieval diet. Your gym-prowess is, I assmue, impressive but I honest;y have no idea given I don't do weights - we're talking about carrying upward of 100lb of gear into battle, including all-over body-armour that restricts your breathing, is lined and padded with wool and leather, cooks you, and some of it hangs off your wrists and ankles. Thhen there's the shields, longsword, misericord, personal death-dealing weapon of choice etc..

2. Try reading the link I posted, if you want to ignore my informed opinion.

3. Try being a little more civil.

[Centurion1]

1. You're 20, not 14 - you're also not on a medieval diet. Your gym-prowess is, I assmue, impressive but I honest;y have no idea given I don't do weights - we're talking about carrying upward of 100lb of gear into battle, including all-over body-armour that restricts your breathing, is lined and padded with wool and leather, cooks you, and some of it hangs off your wrists and ankles. Thhen there's the shields, longsword, misericord, personal death-dealing weapon of choice etc..

2. Try reading the link I posted, if you want to ignore my informed opinion.

3. Try being a little more civil.

If by saying Phillips such nonsense is not civil enough for you I think you need to reevaluate some things

As I said when I was fourteen I was already 6' and 170 is pounds so what're ah. And I don't consider my diet likely to be radically different from that of an aristocrat in the medieval times in terms of acquired protein so I consider that point moot. Not to mention in the summer time hitch appears to be the entirety of robs life they fruits and vegetables are more than Plentiful.

As I said modern combat gear is just as heavy and 17 year olds seem more than capable of carrying it on the modern battlefield. I'm not impressed by the knights weights it was as I said magnificently well distributed the harness was not 100 pounds more like 60 and a medieval knight is not sprinting around the battlefield throwing himself up and down. He was mounted on a gigantic warhorse and was charging around.

I read your link I wasn't impressed. I think in your quest to prove me martins ignorance you are either ignoring facts or embellishing some of your own

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If by saying Phillips such nonsense is not civil enough for you I think you need to reevaluate some things

As I said when I was fourteen I was already 6' and 170 is pounds so what're ah. And I don't consider my diet likely to be radically different from that of an aristocrat in the medieval times in terms of acquired protein so I consider that point moot. Not to mention in the summer time hitch appears to be the entirety of robs life they fruits and vegetables are more than Plentiful.

As I said modern combat gear is just as heavy and 17 year olds seem more than capable of carrying it on the modern battlefield. I'm not impressed by the knights weights it was as I said magnificently well distributed the harness was not 100 pounds more like 60 and a medieval knight is not sprinting around the battlefield throwing himself up and down. He was mounted on a gigantic warhorse and was charging around.

I read your link I wasn't impressed. I think in your quest to prove me martins ignorance you are either ignoring facts or embellishing some of your own

There are about 2lb per kilogram, 60lb would be below the weight a medieval knight in full plate had to contend with, and the harness is not "magnificently" well distributed, a lot of it is borne on the lower arms and lower legs, this was such a problem that by the 16th century with the rise of firearms lower leg defences were finally abandoned for knight afoot, added to this is the constrictive nature of the breast/back plate which essentially makes a rigid cage for the chest and limits your ability to draw a deep breath. The entire amount a medieval knight had to carry would be around 100lb, his greatword/halbard and longsword and dagger alone would account for at least 10lb, his battle shield likewise was a heavy piece of kit.

Medieval plate functions differently to modern body armour, it's much more about providing an effective barrier where modern body armour is about absorbing a blow.

Fun fact: They discovered a bodkin arrow will go through kevlar weave just like maile.

By contrast, modern combat gear puts very little if any weight on the limbs and instead distributes it between shoulders and hips, so even if the weight is the same the load-caring equipment you have means you are bearing it differently.

Edit: What is wrong with the link? The Royal Armouries are just that, and they are one of the foremost authorities on medieval arms, the research was conducted by three internationally recognised institutions, what's not to like?

"We found that carrying this kind of load spread across the body requires a lot more energy than carrying the same weight in a backpack,"

[Sasaki Kojiro]

"We found that carrying this kind of load spread across the body requires a lot more energy than carrying the same weight in a backpack,"

That makes sense, having metal on your shins and feet makes it harder to left the leg while having it on your back doesn't really.

[Crazed Rabbit]

From the link -

Fight interpreters from the city's Royal Armouries wore replica armour for walking and running exercises.

The oxygen usage of the interpreters was then measured.

I'm skeptical of these folks. First off, I doubt they were in the same physical shape as medieval warriors.

Secondly, they're using replica armor, not real armor, which likely isn't the same standard.

It's one data point.

Numerous other sources state armor weight was lower (20 kgs) and still easy to move in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour#cite_note-5
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aam...s.htm#weight_b

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WmFvQAEelM

A "tough 16-17 year old" cannot carry as much as a soldier for as long - you only have to look at the soldiers in modern armies, the 18 year old infantrymen are noticably smaller than their NCO's, especially accross the shoulders.

Um...American high school football players?

To the point - it's a fantasy book. With dragons.

CR

[The Stranger]

That makes sense, having metal on your shins and feet makes it harder to left the leg while having it on your back doesn't really.

but hes on a horse...

[The Stranger]

Um...American high school football players?

To the point - it's a fantasy book. With dragons.

CR

this is the only comment on this page that makes any sense. you guys seem to miss the entire point of story telling...

[a completely inoffensive name]

this is the only comment on this page that makes any sense. you guys seem to miss the entire point of story telling...

NO, HOW CAN ARROW GO OVER WALL? PHYSICS MAN, PHYSICS.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

From the link -


I'm skeptical of these folks. First off, I doubt they were in the same physical shape as medieval warriors.

Secondly, they're using replica armor, not real armor, which likely isn't the same standard.

It's one data point.

Numerous other sources state armor weight was lower (20 kgs) and still easy to move in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour#cite_note-5
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aam...s.htm#weight_b

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WmFvQAEelM

You should not be that skeptical: http://www.royalarmouries.org/home

Like I said Royal Armouries, it's on the tin. They have access to the battle and tournament armour of the Kings of England and their families, and unlike previous eras they know the difference between the two. They also have access to the contemporaries manuals. Let me be clear, there is a difference between prohibatively heavy and just "heavy", medieval armour is the latter. I've seen enough men at arms do cartwheels and backflips to know you can move in the stuff, that's not the point. The point is fatigue, the ability to fight and think.

Wiki doesn't mention the weight, and I think your other link is based more on handling existing examples than testing them - want to know how long it takes to make a suit of Armour? Get the Ryal Armourers to make one.

Um...American high school football players?

To the point - it's a fantasy book. With dragons.

CR

...famously lack stamina. Running like that for five minutes is an impressive feet in and of itself, but it's not the same as half an hour of continuous fighting.

[The Stranger]

NO, HOW CAN ARROW GO OVER WALL? PHYSICS MAN, PHYSICS.

Y U NO SAY I READ FYZIKZ BOOK??? Y U NO SAY!!!

[CountArach]

NO, HOW CAN ARROW GO OVER WALL? PHYSICS MAN, PHYSICS.

A wizard did it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A wizard did it.

See, I'd be totally OK with that, it would be lazy but at least you're asking me to suspend my disbelief.

On the other hand, if you don't ask me to suspend my disbelief you better have something to distract me from your lack of a concrete believable world.

[Greyblades]

Dragons, political intrigue, light magic, an amazingly imbred monarchy, direwolves, giants, mammoths and a funny dwarf isn't enough?

[The Stranger]

look its a story, it creates a setting, has a certain athmosphere, and it usually focuses to make its main plot believable or entertaining in a way. how he failed to accurately portray that arrows cannot actually fly up a 700 ft wall and stick into something in our world is irrelevant for the plot, it is irrelevant for the story, and if you fall over that then imo you are nitpicking. and yes after all he's just a human being he does not have knowledge about everything, i doubt that if he realised these things when he was writing he wouldnt have changed it.

and because it is a story and you have a plot which has to be told, therefor sometimes you have to make concessions and if that means that reality will be amongst the casualties then so be it. hence a 14 year old kid can wear full battle armour because it makes for a better story.

[Strike For The South]

as well as a twenty year old i weigh 195 pounds at 6'1'' and can bench 200+ pounds, squat 375 pounds deadlift 300 pounds and hang clean 185 pounds multiple times. .

That's a demerit. Your average strength and your noticeable muscle imbalance scare me.

I have nothing to say about plate armor but do agree that children are frighteningly small

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Dragons, political intrigue, light magic, an amazingly imbred monarchy, direwolves, giants, mammoths and a funny dwarf isn't enough?

I can get that elsewhere, from Robin Hobb, or just straight from the Prof him self.

For me, Martin's lack of grip on the physical world mirrors his lack of grip on the characters.

Example: Caitlin hates John, she has litterally HATED him since he was a baby, a perfectly decent young man, her husband's son and sibling to her own children. Even so, she HATES him, and she has held on to that hatred for 14 years.

I mean, seriously?

Martin seems to write only with regard to his plot, but not even Homer's characters and settings were this arbitary, and the end is entirely predictable!

As I said before, the only times he has tricked me have been when I honestly didn't think he would go there.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I have nothing to say about plate armor but do agree that children are frighteningly small

Aren't they?

It's like, if you touch them you might break something.

Anyway:

Things Philipvs hates about modern literature: Lazy derrivative dross.

[Greyblades]

Lazy and deriviative? Maybe, compared to Bernard Cornwell, it's still enjoyable and compared to things like twilight, it's a bloody dictionary. Seriously you've got to cut authors some slack or you end up not enjoying anything.

I mean, seriously?

...Mate, real people can be even worse. I dont like it but I find it all too easy to accept.

[Centurion1]

That's a demerit. Your average strength and your noticeable muscle imbalance scare me.

I have nothing to say about plate armor but do agree that children are frighteningly small

those arent absurd weights

[Centurion1]

I can get that elsewhere, from Robin Hobb, or just straight from the Prof him self.

For me, Martin's lack of grip on the physical world mirrors his lack of grip on the characters.

Example: Caitlin hates John, she has litterally HATED him since he was a baby, a perfectly decent young man, her husband's son and sibling to her own children. Even so, she HATES him, and she has held on to that hatred for 14 years.

I mean, seriously?

Martin seems to write only with regard to his plot, but not even Homer's characters and settings were this arbitary, and the end is entirely predictable!

As I said before, the only times he has tricked me have been when I honestly didn't think he would go there.

a astard son of her husand who represents her husbands infidelity to her? not surprising at all. disappointing of the character but not surprising.

[Strike For The South]

those arent absurd weights

I know, I commented as much. Like I said, it's not your frial, twig like, eastern europeany physique that bothers me.

It's the fact you are deadlifting 75 pounds less than you are squatting, that is a noticeable imbalance.

[Tellos Athenaios]

@CR, it's really not about being strong enough to lift 25 or even 50 kg. It's about being strong enough to lift 25 kg, plus buttress the sheer impact of another big guy weighed down with another 25 kg and swinging at you aiming to do serious harm. American football players have it quite easy by comparison.

Hence why fighting sports classify according to weight criteria of the opponents and why as the opponents get heavier it becomes prohibitively more difficult to compete as a light weight. It's not 300 pounds or whatever $impressive of dead weight carefully aligned so it's *easy* to lift as much without breaking, twisting or over-exerting anything. It's that weight and it isn't co-operating and in fact is trying to batter you to death.

Hence why all the "big boy" gym numbers are utterly meaningless and misguided.

@Stranger: but horses get killed, too. If you fall off your horse with 25 kg of weight on you whilst people are trying to get a good swing or two at you, things won't be as easy any more.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Lazy and deriviative? Maybe, compared to Bernard Cornwell, it's still enjoyable and compared to things like twilight, it's a bloody dictionary. Seriously you've got to cut authors some slack or you end up not enjoying anything.

...Mate, real people can be even worse. I dont like it but I find it all too easy to accept.

a astard son of her husand who represents her husbands infidelity to her? not surprising at all. disappointing of the character but not surprising.

Someone she's known since she was a baby? When she's not otherwise a heartless bitch?

It's not very convincing really, holding on to that level of hatred in the face of all the evidence would have to be pretty exhausting, and I find it hard to see Ned stayin in love with her.

Again, the problem is that Martin pitches this as "gritty" and "realistic" but it isn't really - it's not as bad as Harry Potter but it's not Tolkien, Cornwall or even Jordan.

The characters and description are at odds with the genre.

[The Stranger]

have you not read cinderella?

but seriously, its not that weird, like said he reminds her of neds infidelity and its just an open wound. she cant forget about it because he is always there and she cant forgive because he is always there. and yes she should not blame him because its not his fault but she does. and its not unrealistic that she does, many people would do that in such or a similar case (think about girlfriend cheating and guy going to beat up the guy she cheated with while he will forgive and stay with his girlfriend...)

[a completely inoffensive name]

Y U NO SAY I READ FYZIKZ BOOK??? Y U NO SAY!!!

HOW CAN YOU GO ABOUT OVER IT WHEN YOU HAVENT EVEN TAKEN WHICH TIME IT IS THUS REQUIRED TO EVEN KNOW ABOUT TALKING?!?!?!?!?

A wizard did it.

AN WIZARD PUT 1200 STONE WORTH OF METALLIC SHIELDING UPON YOUNG MAN!?!?!

[Greyblades]

but seriously, its not that weird, like said he reminds her of neds infidelity and its just an open wound. she cant forget about it because he is always there and she cant forgive because he is always there. and yes she should not blame him because its not his fault but she does. and its not unrealistic that she does, many people would do that in such or a similar case

Also, she's narrowminded and a bit thick.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

have you not read cinderella?

but seriously, its not that weird, like said he reminds her of neds infidelity and its just an open wound. she cant forget about it because he is always there and she cant forgive because he is always there. and yes she should not blame him because its not his fault but she does. and its not unrealistic that she does, many people would do that in such or a similar case (think about girlfriend cheating and guy going to beat up the guy she cheated with while he will forgive and stay with his girlfriend...)

It's not quite the same is it, also, Cinderella is a story to frighten children.

Also, she's narrowminded and a bit thick.

I tend to think so too, "profoundly lacking in judgement" would be a good summation - all Rob's troubles stem from her, including not having John at his side.

The thing is, no one in the books really seems to think so.

Which basically means everyone's a bit thick, or they have "plot blindess" to her failings because if Ned et al. just told her to shut up from book one everyone would have been better off.

[Greyblades]

I tend to think so too, "profoundly lacking in judgement" would be a good summation - all Rob's troubles stem from her, including not having John at his side.

Well, not all his problems. *cough*Jeyne Westerling*cough*Theon Greyjoy's betrayal*cough*ignoring his empathic direwolf when it doesn't want to go into a trap*cough*

The thing is, no one in the books really seems to think so.

No one on her side anyway, I think littlefinger wouldnt have all but accused tyrion to her if he had a high opinion for her political savy. Tyrion calls her out on it, though she ignored it because she thinks he would have said anything to be let go.

Which basically means everyone's a bit thick, or they have "plot blindess" to her failings because if Ned et al. just told her to shut up from book one everyone would have been better off.

Actually I think I remember afew people got quite peeved off at her for letting Jamie go, if Rob hadnt already been ashamed for his prior stupidity *ahem* he probably wouldnt have been so quick to forgive her.