Things Strike Doesn't Understand About Modern Literature

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, not all his problems. *cough*Jeyne Westerling*cough*Theon Greyjoy's betrayal*cough*ignoring his empathic direwolf when it doesn't want to go into a trap*cough*

All of which are a result of Caitlin's poor negotiating skills, I mean, seriously, that has to be the worst bargin EVER!

Jeyne herself was not a bad pick anyway, and her family problems would have resolved themselves with Rob's win.

No, Rob's real problem was Bolton, who had been deliberately whittling away Rob infantry and didn't do the thing Caitlin said he would anyway - hold against Tywin.

The Greatjohn should have commanded the infantry with the Karstark - Bolton should have been always at Rob's side, where he would be most use and best watched. You'll recall that was more or less Rob instinct.

Alternatively, give Karstark the infantry and leave Bolton with him.

No one on her side anyway, I think littlefinger wouldnt have all but accused tyrion to her if he had a high opinion for her political savy. Tyrion calls her out on it, though she ignored it because she thinks he would have said anything to be let go.

Ned bought it too - and it is not against Tyrion's character if you don't know how he feels about his brother.

Actually I think I remember afew people got quite peeved off at her for letting Jamie go, if Rob hadnt already been ashamed for his prior stupidity *ahem* he probably wouldnt have been so quick to forgive her.

The thing I don't get about that is why the prison guard went with it, she's the Queen Mother but so what? Women aren't that important in Martin's universe.

[Greyblades]

All of which are a result of Caitlin's poor negotiating skills, I mean, seriously, that has to be the worst bargin EVER!

Theon's betrayal was because of Catlin?

Jeyne herself was not a bad pick anyway, and her family problems would have resolved themselves with Rob's win.

As a woman? Certainly. As a political asset? Yeesh, it's like rob went out of his way to pick Tywin's most useless bannerman family to shag into. Their castle was a ruin, thier gold mines were empty and there was no blooming way the lannisters were going to let them keep thier lands whether Robb won or not.

No, Rob's real problem was Bolton, who had been deliberately whittling away Rob infantry and didn't do the thing Caitlin said he would anyway - hold against Tywin.


The Greatjohn should have commanded the infantry with the Karstark - Bolton should have been always at Rob's side, where he would be most use and best watched. You'll recall that was more or less Rob instinct.

Alternatively, give Karstark the infantry and leave Bolton with him..

Personally I think Robb should have given bolton more that 2000 men, you've got a guy who's family are known touturers, the head of the household is cut of the same cloth as Tywin lannister and Catiln thought he'd stand and fight in a 15-1 battle?

Ned bought it too - and it is not against Tyrion's character if you don't know how he feels about his brother.

If I remember correctly Ned wasnt on the up and up at that stage. He was still determined not to play politics so his idiocy was more than a lack of sense, sort of. I dont think I understand the Tyrion bit though, what's his brother got to do with Catilin ignoring his protests that she's being foolish?

The thing I don't get about that is why the prison guard went with it, she's the Queen Mother but so what? Women aren't that important in Martin's universe.

Aye but the female characters do thier damndest to make that not so. Also the 7 ft, hulking, woman-knight, sworn to Cat's service probably had something to do with getting the consent of the guard

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Theon's betrayal was because of Catlin?

Theon's betrayel is not that important in the grand scheme of things - he could have offred her Sansa but aside from that letting Theon go was not that big a loss, he wasn't exactly effective.

As a woman? Certainly. As a political asset? Yeesh, it's like rob went out of his way to pick Tywin's most useless bannerman family to shag into. Their castle was a ruin, thier gold mines were empty and there was no blooming way the lannisters were going to let them keep thier lands whether Robb won or not.

Well, marrying a Frey would have been worse - Jeyne might be useless dynastically (they had a lot of fun in bed though, apparently and that has its own uses for a leader) but being tied to the Freys would have killed Rob sooner or later, as it in fact did.

Personally I think Robb should have given bolton more that 2000 men, you've got a guy who's family are known touturers, the head of the household is cut of the same cloth as Tywin lannister and Catiln thought he'd stand and fight in a 15-1 battle?

He wasn't meant to stand, just distract Tywin until Rob slipped bast him. Rob didn't have enough infantry to be useful until he had the men of the Riverlands with him anyway.

If I remember correctly Ned wasnt on the up and up at that stage. He was still determined not to play politics so his idiocy was more than a lack of sense, sort of. I dont think I understand the Tyrion bit though, what's his brother got to do with Catilin ignoring his protests that she's being foolish?

People think Tyrion doesn't really like his brother, because none of his family seem to like him and everyone sees him as the "Imp", the poisenous little troll. Screwing with his brother by betting against him makes sense in that context.

It's also that people just assume Tyrion is vile and odious that he would have Bran knifed.

[Greyblades]

Theon's betrayel is not that important in the grand scheme of things - he could have offred her Sansa but aside from that letting Theon go was not that big a loss, he wasn't exactly effective.

But his actions caused everyone to think Bran and Rickon were dead and probably was what caused the greyjoys to start attacking the northlands, not to mention sending Theon on a diplomatic mission was just asking for it to go wrong.

Well, marrying a Frey would have been worse - Jeyne might be useless dynastically (they had a lot of fun in bed though, apparently and that has its own uses for a leader) but being tied to the Freys would have killed Rob sooner or later, as it in fact did.

Yeah, but he probably would have gotten as much fun with the freys (they werent known for abstinance after all) could be dealt with after the war, robb could wait until old frey was dead and the family devolved into infighting before getting rid of his Frey wife. Though I suppose that would be out of character for Rob to divorce a woman.

He wasn't meant to stand, just distract Tywin until Rob slipped bast him. Rob didn't have enough infantry to be useful until he had the men of the Riverlands with him anyway.

Ah, sorry, the TV series has been on my mind more frequenly than the books recently, I was thinking of the diversion for the battle of riverrun by mistake. Though now that I give it more thought I wonder why rob even gave Roose any troops to begin with, a flayed man banner and a personality that mirror's Tywin's just screams unscrupulous ambition. Still, 14-15 year old and all that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ah, sorry, the TV series has been on my mind more frequenly than the books recently, I was thinking of the diversion for the battle of riverrun by mistake. Though now that I give it more thought I wonder why rob even gave Roose any troops to begin with, a flayed man banner and a personality that mirror's Tywin's just screams unscrupulous ambition. Still, 14-15 year old and all that.

His mum told him to.

As to Theon, that was all Bolton too, remember.

He must be so proud of his little boy.

[The Stranger]

It's not quite the same is it, also, Cinderella is a story to frighten children.



I tend to think so too, "profoundly lacking in judgement" would be a good summation - all Rob's troubles stem from her, including not having John at his side.

The thing is, no one in the books really seems to think so.

Which basically means everyone's a bit thick, or they have "plot blindess" to her failings because if Ned et al. just told her to shut up from book one everyone would have been better off.

not really she negotiated the freys to his side quite well but he went and messed it up.. but ye then she messed it up worse by releasing jamie, which i found annoying but is perfectly understanding from a mothers pov.

anyway where is Strike, im waiting for him to say that the only thing less pointless than adults reading fantasy books is adults discussing fantasy books, so i can nod in approval!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

not really she negotiated the freys to his side quite well but he went and messed it up.. but ye then she messed it up worse by releasing jamie, which i found annoying but is perfectly understanding from a mothers pov.

Only a really stupid mother would think it made sense. Tywin Lannister was never going to kill Sansa or Arya and he would never release them for Jaime.

So....

Beyond that, Caitlin bound Rob and his sisters to Freys in marriage, one might be acceptable but not the other - all your dynastic eggs in one basket?

Um, no.

Frey was unreasonable in the extreme and likely to be treacherous, admittedly if the Tully garrison had not been withdrawn Rob might not have had his unfortunate accident, but even so.

[The Stranger]

cmon... are you that heartless? you would let your own children die possibly (or even remain in captivity with the enemy with the threat of death always present) and not do anything about it when you have a chance, even a remote one to save them?

thats not stupid at all, and i think not only mothers would do it. ok, she is not an ordinary mother she is mother of a king, but she knows that and tried to fight it but then she heard her 2 youngest sons were dead she was just overcome with grief and she did what she did.

im starting to think that something is wrong with you rather than with the characters in grmm :P

(semi-joking...)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

cmon... are you that heartless? you would let your own children die possibly (or even remain in captivity with the enemy with the threat of death always present) and not do anything about it when you have a chance, even a remote one to save them?

thats not stupid at all, and i think not only mothers would do it. ok, she is not an ordinary mother she is mother of a king, but she knows that and tried to fight it but then she heard her 2 youngest sons were dead she was just overcome with grief and she did what she did.

im starting to think that something is wrong with you rather than with the characters in grmm :P

(semi-joking...)

Why would Tywin release Sansa or Arya once he has Jaime back?

He's not going to do it, he'd just laugh at you - that's obvious. The fact is, Martin presents this as a rational choice but if she had thought about it at all she would recognise that Jaime has no way to influence Tywin and Tywin has no reason to make a deal, as he already has what he wants - really obvious.

As to there being something wrong with me - well, probably, but I'm not a heartless bastard - I'm just not that monumentally stupid or uselessly sentimental over great distances.

By the time Jaime reached home Sansa could already be dead, and was in fact already gone.

[The Stranger]

you act like it was a rational descision but it wasnt, it was emotional... imo he doesnt present it as a rational choice at all.. if to try and save the life of your own kid seems uselessly sentimental to me i hope you will never have children or live in a group with other people relying on you.

[Greyblades]

Also, she's ridiculously naiive.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

you act like it was a rational descision but it wasnt, it was emotional... imo he doesnt present it as a rational choice at all.. if to try and save the life of your own kid seems uselessly sentimental to me i hope you will never have children or live in a group with other people relying on you.

I invite you to stick your head in the Bacnroom to see how my own mind works.

[The Stranger]

I invite you to stick your head in the Bacnroom to see how my own mind works.

:P i like you in the backroom haha

i mightve sounded a bit offensive i didnt mean it that way. i just think that how you feel about this matter is not representable for the majority of humanity.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

:P i like you in the backroom haha

i mightve sounded a bit offensive i didnt mean it that way. i just think that how you feel about this matter is not representable for the majority of humanity.

I think if you view my current topic in the Backroom and my berwilderment at people's responses you can see I'm not seeing things through the same lens as everyone else.

Regardless, I still find Caitlin's thinking a bit hard to take, the whole sequence felt a bit forced, contrived so that Jaime could escape and get his own subplot.

[Sir Moody]

Its not that you aren't seeing the world right its that Caitlin didn't see the world right.

Its pretty well set up in the first book - the Starks are living in the past where a Knights word was his bond and the "virtuous" always wins - its a complete fantasy but it completely shaped all of Ned's, Rob's and pre slit throat Caitlin's choices

they all truly didn't believe they would be betrayed - that world maybe existed back during the first civil war (and even that is debatable since it ended with Jaimes betrayal of his oaths) but at this point that just isn't the case - nobody is keeping their word and nobody is safe

the really funny thing about Jaimes character is he goes from being a heartless betrayer to thinking a lot like the Starks... and its going to be interesting to see what post slit throat Caitlin does to him next book...