The Elephant in the room.

[Kralizec]

Wouldn't this whole absurd debate we all know the answer to come to a swift end were we able to produce some examples of muslim men raping uslim women in manners that do not include family honor/debt type incidents. Like, how many incidents in the UK are there where muslim men rape muslim women for the sake of jollies?

I don't think there are any stats that can answer your question. But assuming your point is: "are muslims less inclined to rape a muslim woman than a native European?"

There's no doubt in my mind that these people, or more probably their parents, originate from a backwards culture. Pakistan presumably has evolved socially since they left, but that went by them completely because they don't live there, and since they didn't integrate into their new country's culture very well, they essentially fossilized into the backwardsness they were in when they left their country of origin. I say that because this pretty much applies to the Dutch-Turkish community - quite often they came from the most underdeveloped parts of Turkey; and while Turkey nowadays is the poster-child for the "islamic countries can be civilized, too" argument, some of our ethnically turkish population is significantly less "enlightened" than that (allthough to their credit, Turks in the Netherlands generally cause less trouble than Morrocans)

No doubt that the pedophiles in the OP didn't respect women, or girls very much. But then again, I doubt that rapists and/or pedophiles in general do. They specifically targeted white girls, which to me suggests that either:
A) they thought that Allah would send them to hell for raping an underage muslim girl out of wedlock, but thought that doing the same to white non-muslim girls would be halal
B) girls from their own ethnic background are less available and more difficult to groom
C) they feared social backlash and stigma if they did this to their "own community", and thought that police attention was less likely if they targeted white girls
Personally I'm guessing a combination of B and C.

In any case, apart from how terrible this incident is, most of the outrage here seems to be at the as-of-yet unsubstantiated claim that the police decided years ago they shouldn't investigate this case because they feared someone might cry "racist!". I'm no fan of the so called multicultural ideology, but I simply don't buy that accusation when there's nothing to back that up.

[Kadagar_AV]

MRD, that is not fair.

A muslim girl can, as I have understood it, not be raped.

If she has sex with someone she should not, it just means that the men responsible for her hasn't been controlling/protecting her enough, no?

[Major Robert Dump]

MRD, that is not fair.

A muslim girl can, as I have understood it, not be raped.

If she has sex with someone she should not, it just means that the men responsible for her hasn't been controlling/protecting her enough, no?

On one hand, yes, and if there are muslim-on-muslim rapes (that dont involve honer/revenge) then many of them don't get reported. I am leaving out the honor/revenge rapes because in most cases a non-muslim would not be a victim of such a thing so we remove it from the argument altogether since it is, in some cirlces, socially acceptable to punish women in this manner.

So yes, this can be considered a valid point, however, not every victim of muslim-on-muslim rape is going to come from a hard-line family that would keep it hush, and even if they did, I am sure there would be girls who depart from their family on these matters....

My point is that surely there are some examples of muslim men raping muslim women. There has to be in order to facilitate the idea that the victims in the OP crime were not chosen based on race/culture. I don't for a second by that it was just because they were easier victims to isolate. While this may be true, these guys also know that if they rape a muslim they would never even amke it to trial, and they have a fear of god that does not extend to victimizing infidels.

Show me the muslim rapes

[Kadagar_AV]

Word.

I was just strengthening your point

[Major Robert Dump]

I know. And I was stating that even with the cultural taboo of rape, some muslim girl somewhere in that country has to have had reported a rape at the hands of a muslim aggressor..... surely. Otherwise, it is obvious what is going on

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I know. And I was stating that even with the cultural taboo of rape, some muslim girl somewhere in that country has to have had reported a rape at the hands of a muslim aggressor..... surely. Otherwise, it is obvious what is going on

They just get labled sluts and married off - there have been a few women who have subsequently come forward under condition of anonymity.

[Ironside]

But... Backward tradition and religion, isn't that kind of the same thing?

The secular Iranians who came to Sweden during the cultural revolution has done well here, the muslim Iranians who has come lately - not so much.

And how many of those sucular Iranians are Muslim enough to be insulted by being bundled together with some backward tribalists?

Religion in those regions are also some kind of halfway thing. Rather than being very religious, they're being religious because they haven't experienced anything else. The real fundamentalists are a different breed, even if they can recruit easiest from those regions.

No doubt that the pedophiles in the OP didn't respect women, or girls very much. But then again, I doubt that rapists and/or pedophiles in general do. They specifically targeted white girls, which to me suggests that either:
A) they thought that Allah would send them to hell for raping an underage muslim girl out of wedlock, but thought that doing the same to white non-muslim girls would be halal
B) girls from their own ethnic background are less available and more difficult to groom
C) they feared social backlash and stigma if they did this to their "own community", and thought that police attention was less likely if they targeted white girls
Personally I'm guessing a combination of B and C.

In any case, apart from how terrible this incident is, most of the outrage here seems to be at the as-of-yet unsubstantiated claim that the police decided years ago they shouldn't investigate this case because they feared someone might cry "racist!". I'm no fan of the so called multicultural ideology, but I simply don't buy that accusation when there's nothing to back that up.

It has rather to do with excusing themself with madonna and whore mechanisms. Since white girls are sexually liberated, they have to be whores and whores are worthless people you can do anything with. And that their cultural manly role is threatened by equal and independent women, making them less than men (you can see men who are feeling this even native Scandinavians occationally) and that they aren't exactly the most successful people, they try to be successful by very basic and pathetic means of dominance and oppression.
Backwards as heck.

I'm curious for what the Koran talks about female and female sexuality and it's consequences for their social status. Something for our residental Koran expert perhaps?

[Fragony]

How many did you date

[Hax]

I'm curious for what the Koran talks about female and female sexuality and it's consequences for their social status. Something for our residental Koran expert perhaps?

Well, I never read the Qur'an in its entirety, as I don't find it all that interesting, and I don't think there are any experts on tafsir here anyway, so yeah. I might try to find something about it.

Also, you should probably realise that the Qur'an on its own isn't sufficient in order to live a life in which religion is integrated into most aspects of your daily life. For that there are hadith (plural ahadith), but they are tricky in more than one way.

EDIT: Also, rape is a no-go area. There's no difference here between Muslims and non-Muslims. The classical interpretation is that rapists should be stoned to death.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

EDIT: Also, rape is a no-go area. There's no difference here between Muslims and non-Muslims. The classical interpretation is that rapists should be stoned to death.

Not true - it's not rape if you are in an urban area and no one discovers you, because she obviously didn't cry out - which means she must have consented.

That's a Judaeo-Islamic one, that.

Funnily enough, that edict functions on a paradigm similar to the Western one where the welfare of all women is the concern of all men.

[Hax]

Did you misunderstand me? I said that rape is punishable by death. Whether or not a situation constitutes rape is not something I discussed, all I'm saying that if someone is convicted of rape, he is to be stoned.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Did you misunderstand me? I said that rape is punishable by death. Whether or not a situation constitutes rape is not something I discussed, all I'm saying that if someone is convicted of rape, he is to be stoned.

I'm sorry, yes you are correct.

I should have been more specific - the point I was making was in relation to this case, in an urban setting, and how the perpetrators (and perhaps some in their community) might see the situation.

I.e. the fact that these white girls don't immidiately scream blue murder makes them sluts.

[Fragony]

Did you misunderstand me? I said that rape is punishable by death. Whether or not a situation constitutes rape is not something I discussed, all I'm saying that if someone is convicted of rape, he is to be stoned.

If the victim has at least 3 Male witnisses (or was it five) it's 5:30 here and I need coffee, I am out of it. But if she doesn't have witnisses she will be killed or forced to marry. But that's in arabland not here

[Major Robert Dump]

So the offending parties who are still "believers" change the definition of rape and magic! it's not rape, just as the offending parties who practice homosexuality change the definition of homosexuality and magic! it's not gay.

I also seem to recall qoran passages where guidelines are laid forth is dealing with the looted/captured belongings of the enemy. Again, not syaing these guys were waging a holy war, but if one were willing one could fit the rapage of an infidel into that acceptable definition. I seem to recall a few years ago when a giant debate erupted amongst the fundies about sexual activity during Ramadan, and there was quite a colorful debate about what did and did not constitute masterbation and sexual activity, and some of the moderates tho poked fun at this debate were murdered. People will always try to find a way around the rules, just look at the catholics

[Idaho]

I thought I would bump this thread with more stories of wealthy muslim men abusing and exploiting young poor white girls. This example is sadly much bigger than we thought. It's not just confined to a small corner of northern England:

Muslims Traffick White Christian girls in multi-million dollar industry of exploitation

I might have got my races and religions mixed up. If so, please forgive - but I thought the matter of exploitation was more important than giving the muzzers a kicking... eh? What do you mean it wasn't?

[Fragony]

I guess that changes everything! I heard eskimo's build iglo's that's just cold imho

[Vladimir]

I thought I would bump this thread with more stories of wealthy muslim men abusing and exploiting young poor white girls. This example is sadly much bigger than we thought. It's not just confined to a small corner of northern England:

Muslims Traffick White Christian girls in multi-million dollar industry of exploitation

I might have got my races and religions mixed up. If so, please forgive - but I thought the matter of exploitation was more important than giving the muzzers a kicking... eh? What do you mean it wasn't?

Looks like I waited until the appropriate moment to roll my eyes.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So what's your point?It happens to non-white women?Anyone here not know that?No? OK?Maybe we should talk about all the Muslim mem and women murdering their daughters for participating in Western culture instead.Another case is being tried as we speak.

[Major Robert Dump]

With all due respect, Idaho, we are not giving a free pass to non-muslim criminals of this type.

The free pass, it seems, tends to come from the left in regards to things muslims say and do. Even here in the states, while we openly lambast christians and jehovas and catholics and baptists and scientologists, if you make some comments about muslims oh no you are a racist. All I ask is that everyone plays by the same set of rules and uses the same standards, and if these men chose these girls specifically because they were NOT muslim, then this issue needs to be addressed as it reflects a very real and dangerous line of thinking

[Hax]

Doesn't the fact that you can openly say just about anywhere (which is what happens) that you can't criticise Islam kind of telling of the fact that you can and indeed should criticise Islam?

[Major Robert Dump]

I don't know what you mean by "just about anywhere." It certainly doesn't come from the run-of-the-mill US news agencies or pundits, and just because I can doesn't mean I won't be labeled as a racist prick for doing so. Not mutually exclusive, the two. This goes far deeper than just the topic at hand, in regards to american journalism, who has taken to leaving out the race and ethnicity of crime suspects in news stories where it is completely relevant, in an effort to promote "diversity."

Basically, Hax, I want to see Islam treated in pop culture and news reporting the same way the other religions are, and I want to see muslims suck it up and take it

[Hax]

What do you mean by race and ethnicity?

Also, to what extent is this actually true? I mean, especially with the idea that we have of America is that you can say anything anywhere all the time, so do you have any situations in which it's evident that media outlets avoid mentioning Islam and/or Muslims?

[Idaho]

With all due respect, Idaho, we are not giving a free pass to non-muslim criminals of this type.

The free pass, it seems, tends to come from the left in regards to things muslims say and do. Even here in the states, while we openly lambast christians and jehovas and catholics and baptists and scientologists, if you make some comments about muslims oh no you are a racist. All I ask is that everyone plays by the same set of rules and uses the same standards, and if these men chose these girls specifically because they were NOT muslim, then this issue needs to be addressed as it reflects a very real and dangerous line of thinking

I don't think muslim criminals get any more of a free ride than christian ones. The point is that many on this board want to make the case that muslim criminal = islam is fundamentally evil; christian criminal = individual bad apple.

The truth is neither of these.

[InsaneApache]

I don't think muslim criminals get any more of a free ride than christian ones.

Unfortunately that's exactly what happened. They did get a free ride because of their ethnicity/culture/religion. It's not acceptable. Is it?

[Visor]

I guess that changes everything! I heard eskimo's build iglo's that's just cold imho

With all due respect, Idaho, we are not giving a free pass to non-muslim criminals of this type.

The free pass, it seems, tends to come from the left in regards to things muslims say and do. Even here in the states, while we openly lambast christians and jehovas and catholics and baptists and scientologists, if you make some comments about muslims oh no you are a racist. All I ask is that everyone plays by the same set of rules and uses the same standards, and if these men chose these girls specifically because they were NOT muslim, then this issue needs to be addressed as it reflects a very real and dangerous line of thinking

Agree completly with this.

[HoreTore]

Unfortunately that's exactly what happened. They did get a free ride because of their ethnicity/culture/religion. It's not acceptable. Is it?

....says a couple of random commentators. The facts, however, state that they were caught, tried and convicted, with additional penalty.

But, because the commentators speaks to IA's existing prejudices, he easily disregards the facts in this case.

[Fragony]

The point is that many on this board want to make the case that muslim criminal = islam is fundamentally evil; christian criminal = individual bad apple.

Oh. And where might that be

[InsaneApache]

....says a couple of random commentators. The facts, however, state that they were caught, tried and convicted, with additional penalty.

But, because the commentators speaks to IA's existing prejudices, he easily disregards the facts in this case.

Hmmmm...I'd say it's more people who think like you that are prejudiced.

[Major Robert Dump]

What do you mean by race and ethnicity?

Also, to what extent is this actually true? I mean, especially with the idea that we have of America is that you can say anything anywhere all the time, so do you have any situations in which it's evident that media outlets avoid mentioning Islam and/or Muslims?

Alright. Look dude. Once upon a time, when I was in college, a new trend was taking hold in local newspapers and univeristy curriculum that advocated leaving the race of SUSPECTS out of crime stories. This was a touchy feely way of being politically correct. They said the race was not relevant. They backed this up by saying the naked eye can be wrong about race, and that a guy described as hispanic could really be arab.

All of that is garbage. When running a crime story where the susepct is STILL AT LARGE, advertising the color/race of the person is as important as what he was wearing, the color of the car, the time of day etc. The public service is negated by running the story without this info. Who cares if I say "arab" and he turns out to be indian. We are trying to solve a crime. They will stop the brown guy. OR the aian guy. Or the white guy.

This trend has taken hold at the local level. No, it's not 100%, but the fact that some outlets do it is highly disturbing.

How does this relate to muslims? Because stories of honor killings will be reported as a homicide. Thats it, a "domectic dispute." Nevermind the the people involved were muslim, or immigrants, or that is was a religious family dispute. Lets call it a "homicide." Meanwhile, the homicide up the street that didn't involve the cause celebe minority will have a story with all sorts of juicy details that some might call irrelevant, or that some might call as relevant as the family in the honor killing being muslim. Again, not 100% all the time, but the mere fact that certain agencies choose to willingly omit this information is disturbing. Imagine taking the Catholic church out of the serial molestation debacle, and just calling the priests "community leaders."

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

....says a couple of random commentators. The facts, however, state that they were caught, tried and convicted, with additional penalty.

But, because the commentators speaks to IA's existing prejudices, he easily disregards the facts in this case.

You mean the local MP and the Muslim activist?

Hardly "random" commentators.

That is not all we are discussing - we are also discussing the fact that these Muslim men picked white​ girls deliberately.