Non-Hispanic Whites Now Minority Births

[Strike For The South]

It was a good run fellas. We are now unwashed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457

[Greyblades]

Heh, you've just gone from the unwashed masses to simply being the unwashed, you'll survive.

[gaelic cowboy]

It was a good run fellas. We are now unwashed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457

Might have to give the Cession States back then so

Texas naturally gets independence.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I can only guess as to what the consequences of this will be.

I know that there is this perception that the USA is somehow unique in that it can supposedly function and prosper even if it lacks the homogenous population that is usually required for a successful nation state. And I think this idea comes from the fact that it was historically populated by a lot of different ethnic groups.

Of course it is usually pointed out that the Germans or the Irish were once regarded in much the same way as Hispanics are nowadays. But I think that was different... those groups were so similar to the typical white American in terms of culture, religion, and at a more base level, even appearance.

With Hispanics, integration might not be so easy. Although crucially, they are at least part of the Christian world, which goes a long way to helping them fit it, as the experience of Europe with Muslims shows.

But don't think the USA is untouchable in terms of its territorial or cultural integrity. If you fill a country with third world people you are going to get third world problems. I suppose a lot will hinge on how well those born to 1st generation Mexican immigrants integrate.

[Kadagar_AV]

If you fill a country with third world people you are going to get third world problems.

That kind of sums it up imho.

[Vladimir]

Yea! Now I can start calling people who don't look like me racist!

[Tuuvi]

I can only guess as to what the consequences of this will be.

I know that there is this perception that the USA is somehow unique in that it can supposedly function and prosper even if it lacks the homogenous population that is usually required for a successful nation state. And I think this idea comes from the fact that it was historically populated by a lot of different ethnic groups.

Of course it is usually pointed out that the Germans or the Irish were once regarded in much the same way as Hispanics are nowadays. But I think that was different... those groups were so similar to the typical white American in terms of culture, religion, and at a more base level, even appearance.

With Hispanics, integration might not be so easy. Although crucially, they are at least part of the Christian world, which goes a long way to helping them fit it, as the experience of Europe with Muslims shows.

But don't think the USA is untouchable in terms of its territorial or cultural integrity. If you fill a country with third world people you are going to get third world problems. I suppose a lot will hinge on how well those born to 1st generation Mexican immigrants integrate.

I have a lot of Hispanic friends and I deal with Hispanic people on a regular basis at work and I've been under the impression that they integrate pretty well for the most part. The only Hispanics I've met that didn't speak English were either newly immigrated or older. Some Latinos that were born here don't even speak Spanish, or they speak it with a "white" accent.

The US is different from Europe in that our immigrants come from countries that border us directly, so certain parts of the US were saturated with the immigrant culture already. I think most of the problems that come from Hispanic immigration stem from the fact that thousands of them came here illegally, not because Latino culture can't integrate with American culture.

[rajpoot]

I always thought that with all the liberals in the USA something like this would be happy news.

[rvg]

I always thought that with all the liberals in the USA something like this would be happy news.

It's neither happy nor unhappy. Nor is it news.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm sorry but I have to say I expected this sort of complacency from the Americans on this board.

So apparently I'm wrong because I'm looking at this from a "European perspective". The thing is, there's no reason to believe that if certain patterns are observed in Europe and the same conditions existed in the USA, the patterns could not be observed there as well.

I know there is this idea that America is somehow immune to Balkanization, and that it is infinitely superior to any other nation on the planet and its supposedly tolerant and diverse nature means that it can assimilate any ethnic group.

But there's no reason to believe all that. Your ability to assimilate different immigrant groups is a national myth. American might think the Irish or Germans count, but tbh in Europe if somebody moved from one (western) European state to another, I don't think they would even be considered an immigrant by most people.

The fact is that the demographic changes taking place in America right now are unprecendented, America has never faced anything like it before.

And on the bit about food, I'll not quote every response I'll just answer them here. Firstly, no, I have never been to Southern California, in fact I never leave my 100% white chav-ridden neighbourhood. U MAD? And secondly, the point on New York is silly because it is in fact cosmopolitan and not dominated by any single ethnic group.

[Montmorency]

the point on New York is silly because it is in fact cosmopolitan and not dominated by any single ethnic group.

Neither would America be. That's the point. Hence

Neither White nor Latin are the homogeneous, monolithic ethnic groups that you imply.

E.g. the rising numbers of Latin Evangelicals, both in (and out!) of the US

Edit: Imprecision plagues this thread, as well.

Firstly: Hispanics, as per my point, can be black, white, Asian, what I might oxymoronically call "pure", etc.

Secondly: Kadagar's clarification seems to have passed unnotced. Hispanic births have been dropping over the last few years, due to the recession. All minority births combined have outpaced the Non-Hispanic white figures. Hispanics, in all their heterogeneity, seem to make up only a quarter of births.

Are you quite through with the alarmism?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Neither would America be. That's the point.

No. New York is a city. When a city is diverse you call it cosmopolitan. When a nation is racially divided by different ethnic groups each dominating their own respective parts of it, you call it racially divided. Because what functions at the city level doesn't necessarily translate to the national level.

So this is the reality for a future white American in what has become 95% Hispanic Los Angeles. He will walk into a shop to get some burgers and roast chicken and whatever white Americans eat, when suddenly... all they sell is tacos nachos and fajitas. And every shop will be the same. And he will be left wondering how he became a stranger in his own country.

It will be like Chinatown, except the whole town in Chinatown.

Does it sound silly? Well, it won't be so funny when you walk outside your door and that's the reality.

E.g. the rising numbers of Latin Evangelicals, both in (and out!) of the US

If you read my posts you will see that I have acknowledged the cultural closeness and the integration that has already taken place. As I said, the issue is the pace of the demographic change, and whether it will reach a point where the assimilation starts taking place in the opposite direction.

[rvg]

I'm sorry but I have to say I expected this sort of complacency from the Americans on this board.

Why are you sorry? It's great!

So apparently I'm wrong because I'm looking at this from a "European perspective". The thing is, there's no reason to believe that if certain patterns are observed in Europe and the same conditions existed in the USA, the patterns could not be observed there as well.

That's right. America is not Europe. Many of us might have European roots, but we're not Europeans. America is not a genetic pattern or a color of one's skin, it's a state of mind. Which is why anybody can become 100% American even if they were born and raised elsewhere.

I know there is this idea that America is somehow immune to Balkanization, and that it is infinitely superior to any other nation on the planet and its supposedly tolerant and diverse nature means that it can assimilate any ethnic group.

We can and we do. What's our secret? We do not try to assimilate anybody. Nobody is required to learn English, nobody is required to accept American values or American culture. At the same time, we do not babysit anyone. Everyone is free to succeed or fail.

But there's no reason to believe all that. Your ability to assimilate different immigrant groups is a national myth. American might think the Irish or Germans count, but tbh in Europe if somebody moved from one (western) European state to another, I don't think they would even be considered an immigrant by most people.

I find that hard to believe. We hosted a couple of Germans from the parent corporation back a few months ago, and they just kept on harping about how they hate the Dutch. That was after we told them that there are lots of Dutch-Americans in Michigan.

The fact is that the demographic changes taking place in America right now are unprecendented, America has never faced anything like it before.

Been there done that. The Irish, the Chinese, the Jews, the [insert an ethnicity here].

[Rhyfelwyr]

That's right. America is not Europe. Many of us might have European roots, but we're not Europeans. America is not a genetic pattern or a color of one's skin, it's a state of mind. Which is why anybody can become 100% American even if they were born and raised elsewhere.

This is nothing revolutionary, it is bog standard civic nationalism. The same type of nationalism that happens to be dominant in Britain and France, which continue to have serious problems integrating immigrants.

We can and we do. What's our secret? We do not try to assimilate anybody. Nobody is required to learn English, nobody is required to accept American values or American culture. At the same time, we do not babysit anyone. Everyone is free to succeed or fail.

You don't have a secret because you have never really assimilated anybody. Like I said, within Europe, the Irish or Germans wouldn't even count. It's not like we don't have small, successful Asian communities here. But when they start pouring in from the third world, there's gonna be problems.

I find that hard to believe. We hosted a couple of Germans from the parent corporation back a few months ago, and they just kept on harping about how they hate the Dutch. That was after we told them that there are lots of Dutch-Americans in Michigan.

It's a bit of banter you get between neighbouring European states because of their history of conflict and rivalry. It just doesn't compare to say, the culture shock of modern Muslim immigrants. The culture shock aspect of Hispanic immigrants is probably somewhere in between. The might integrate they might not. I just think you are too complacent.

Been there done that. The Irish, the Chinese, the Jews, the [insert an ethnicity here].

I've covered these examples and like I said for you to be complacent based on those experiences just shows that you don't appreciate what is happening right now. IIRC black people make up something like 13% of the US population, so if their birth rates are fairly average then I would expect around 1/3 of the coming generation to be Hispanic (feel free to correct this if wrong).

Now, I'm pretty sure that the Irish, Jews, or Chinese never made up anything like 1/3 of the US population. And out of those lot you only really assimilated the Irish.

What makes you so confident that having a massive Hispanic population won't significantly alter American culture, American politics, everyday American life etc.

[Montmorency]

Read my edit.

Your predictions are utterly invalid because your premises are utterly flawed.

So this is the reality for a future white American in what has become 95% Hispanic Los Angeles. He will walk into a shop to get some burgers and roast chicken and whatever white Americans eat, when suddenly... all they sell is tacos nachos and fajitas. And every shop will be the same. And he will be left wondering how he became a stranger in his own country.

This amply demonstrates what I mean...

[rvg]

This is nothing revolutionary, it is bog standard civic nationalism. The same type of nationalism that happens to be dominant in Britain and France, which continue to have serious problems integrating immigrants.

Well, we don't have those problems.

You don't have a secret because you have never really assimilated anybody.

If you put it that way, then we really have nothing to worry about.

Like I said, within Europe, the Irish or Germans wouldn't even count. It's not like we don't have small, successful Asian communities here. But when they start pouring in from the third world, there's gonna be problems.

Then do what we do: stop giving them money. Give nothing and expect nothing in return. Those of them who are worth something will float up, the losers will sink. Either way, they'll only have themselves to thank or to blame.

It's a bit of banter you get between neighbouring European states because of their history of conflict and rivalry. It just doesn't compare to say, the culture shock of modern Muslim immigrants.

I will not dispute that there's more of a gap between euros and muslims than it is between gringos and latinos. Still, the problem is with the European approach to the problem: you're paying them, and expect them to change their ways in return. What you need to do is stop paying them and stop expecting anything. Once the gravy train stops, those who want to succeed will change accordingly.

The culture shock aspect of Hispanic immigrants is probably somewhere in between. The might integrate they might not. I just think you are too complacent.

Latino culture is already a significant part of the mainstream U.S. culture. It's not nearly as much of a culture shock as you might think.

I've covered these examples and like I said for you to be complacent based on those experiences just shows that you don't appreciate what is happening right now. IIRC black people make up something like 13% of the US population, so if their birth rates are fairly average then I would expect around 1/3 of the coming generation to be Hispanic (feel free to correct this if wrong).

And? What difference does it make if the guy next door has the last name Lopez instead of Smith? The American born generation will be overwhelmingly American.

Now, I'm pretty sure that the Irish, Jews, or Chinese never made up anything like 1/3 of the US population. And out of those lot you only really assimilated the Irish.
What makes you so confident that having a massive Hispanic population won't significantly alter American culture, American politics, everyday American life etc.

They already have affected our culture, our politics and our everyday life, and you know what: nothing happened. No lightning bolts have struck. We do not repel other cultures, we absorb them. We take the best out of everything and shed the worst.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Read my edit.

Your predictions are utterly invalid because your premises are utterly flawed.

Read your edit and you didn't really inform me on anything. As usual, the old caveat that the birth rate is dropping amongst immigrant groups is flung out there. Well read the BBC article from the OP. Since 2008, white births fell by 11.4%. For minorities, that figure was was 3.2%. Did Hispanic immigration happen to drop during this recession? Hardly surprising.

As always, everything is dismissed as "alarmism". But here's the reality - you are facing a major demographic shift. In fact it is so dramatic that despite being a nation built by WASP people with uniquely WASP principles, you've got to the stage where you're producing more non-white babies than white ones. There's alarmisn, and then there's denial.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well, we don't have those problems.

You don't have problems with minority ethnic groups in the USA? This is the internet but in RL I bet you would have a hard time telling me that with a straight face.

If you put it that way, then we really have nothing to worry about.

You are not concerned that you've never really assimialted any cultural group at a time when the cultural group that your whole nation was founded on has become a minority?

Then do what we do: stop giving them money. Give nothing and expect nothing in return. Those of them who are worth something will float up, the losers will sink. Either way, they'll only have themselves to thank or to blame.

I will not dispute that there's more of a gap between euros and muslims than it is between gringos and latinos. Still, the problem is with the European approach to the problem: you're paying them, and expect them to change their ways in return. What you need to do is stop paying them and stop expecting anything. Once the gravy train stops, those who want to succeed will change accordingly.

This is just free market fanticism. And it ignores the fact that huge numbers of immigrants work illegaly and never receive anything from the state in terms of handouts. Yet there they are, causing problems.

Latino culture is already a significant part of the mainstream U.S. culture. It's not nearly as much of a culture shock as you might think.

This is something I've said myself repeatedly. But you've been having it in light doses so far.

And? What difference does it make if the guy next door has the last name Lopez instead of Smith? The American born generation will be overwhelmingly American.

If I could share your belief that the "American born generation will be overwhelmingly American", and that the only changes would be something as superficial as surnames, I would agree there is nothing to worry about. The point is as I have said I don't share your complacency.

They already have affected our culture, our politics and our everyday life, and you know what: nothing happened. No lightning bolts have struck. We do not repel other cultures, we absorb them. We take the best out of everything and shed the worst.

They've only ever been a tiny minority of the population, around 16%. You might be assimilating and taking the best bits right now, but can you cope with the pace of change that the article in the OP demonstrates?

[Xiahou]

It was a good run fellas. We are now unwashed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457

Gotta say, I don't really care very much. I never thought of "white people" as a team.

I'm more concerned about the economic status of the people who are having kids and what it means for our long-term financial stability as a nation.

[Papewaio]

If you can love, raise a family and have grandchildren who cares which way your genes wandered out of the same patch of Africa.

[PanzerJaeger]

The only thing that bothers me about Mexicans in particular (and I know that Mexicans only make up a portion of non-white minorities) is Mexico. They seem to have a higher tolerance for corruption, mismanagement, low productivity, and organized crime among many other negatives. The origins of the country are extremely similar to the US, but the culture and/or society just do not seem to work very well in comparison to the US (and I'm certainly not saying the US is perfect). I would hate for such bad habits to be carried over the border and then become commonly accepted as Mexicans become majorities in many areas.

[Tuuvi]

No. New York is a city. When a city is diverse you call it cosmopolitan. When a nation is racially divided by different ethnic groups each dominating their own respective parts of it, you call it racially divided. Because what functions at the city level doesn't necessarily translate to the national level.

So this is the reality for a future white American in what has become 95% Hispanic Los Angeles. He will walk into a shop to get some burgers and roast chicken and whatever white Americans eat, when suddenly... all they sell is tacos nachos and fajitas. And every shop will be the same. And he will be left wondering how he became a stranger in his own country.

It will be like Chinatown, except the whole town in Chinatown.

Does it sound silly? Well, it won't be so funny when you walk outside your door and that's the reality.



If you read my posts you will see that I have acknowledged the cultural closeness and the integration that has already taken place. As I said, the issue is the pace of the demographic change, and whether it will reach a point where the assimilation starts taking place in the opposite direction.

Just because a nation is multi-racial doesn't mean it has to be racially divided. Mexican people like cheeseburgers and fried chicken too. Minorities seem to have a pretty easy time setting up shops and restaurants that specialize in their cuisine, so why would white people food disappear just because they become the minority?

The only thing that bothers me about Mexicans in particular (and I know that Mexicans only make up a portion of non-white minorities) is Mexico. They seem to have a higher tolerance for corruption, mismanagement, low productivity, and organized crime among many other negatives. The origins of the country are extremely similar to the US, but the culture and/or society just do not seem to work very well in comparison to the US (and I'm certainly not saying the US is perfect). I would hate for such bad habits to be carried over the border and then become commonly accepted as Mexicans become majorities in many areas.

In Mexico the Native Americans were a lot more densely populated than in North America, and they lived in urban societies. Because of this they had to be conquered and assimilated, unlike the US where the Indians were just pushed aside. After the conquest a race-based caste system arose with Indians on the bottom, Mestizos (who make up the majority of the Mexican population) in the middle and the white Spaniards on the top. To this day wealth in Mexico is still divided along those lines. My guess is that this is where a lot of Mexico's problems come from, it's lack of opportunity and social mobility.

[ajaxfetish]

To Rhyfelwyr:

Hispanic people may make up a small part of the total US population, but they compose a much more significant proportion in the southwest, and there white American and Hispanic culture have been in contact for centuries. They've already largely assimilated into American culture, and America has already largely assimilated their culture. The connections between Taco Bell and Mexico are not that strong. And we're talking here about babies born in the US. They're growing up here, already surrounded by this culture, already speaking English, already listening to rap music, already eating at Mickey Dees, already watching American Idol. Are there some differences? Sure. Do they matter? I don't think so.

And this level of demographic shift is hardly unprecedented in American history. It doesn't hold a candle to the shift between 1500 and 1900. Of course the previous culture didn't come through that one too well, but unless you're suggesting that Hispanic immigrants are bringing a pandemic of apocalyptic proportions combined with genocidal intentions, I hardly think this will be so catastrophic.

Ajax

[Centurion1]

The only thing that bothers me about Mexicans in particular (and I know that Mexicans only make up a portion of non-white minorities) is Mexico. They seem to have a higher tolerance for corruption, mismanagement, low productivity, and organized crime among many other negatives. The origins of the country are extremely similar to the US, but the culture and/or society just do not seem to work very well in comparison to the US (and I'm certainly not saying the US is perfect). I would hate for such bad habits to be carried over the border and then become commonly accepted as Mexicans become majorities in many areas.

This is incredibly insulting. Do you know any mexicans Panzer? They are incredibly hard working people and are known for it. If for some reason you see a gaggle of them outside of lowes looking for work and think they are lazy and should get a real job your a fool. They are willing to do whatever work they can get that white, black, and asian americans are too good for and they will do it for less. I don't want them to be paid less but those are still commendable qualities. We could ask for far worse immigrant populations moving in and shifting the culture than hard working, predominantly catholic, individuals. I would prefer our situation to our European friends'.

Also I'm talking about mexicans in particular not other latinos.