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Heh, you've just gone from the unwashed masses to simply being the unwashed, you'll survive.
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
It was a good run fellas. We are now unwashed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457
Might have to give the Cession States back then so It was a good run fellas. We are now unwashed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457
Texas naturally gets independence.
I can only guess as to what the consequences of this will be.
I know that there is this perception that the USA is somehow unique in that it can supposedly function and prosper even if it lacks the homogenous population that is usually required for a successful nation state. And I think this idea comes from the fact that it was historically populated by a lot of different ethnic groups.
Of course it is usually pointed out that the Germans or the Irish were once regarded in much the same way as Hispanics are nowadays. But I think that was different... those groups were so similar to the typical white American in terms of culture, religion, and at a more base level, even appearance.
With Hispanics, integration might not be so easy. Although crucially, they are at least part of the Christian world, which goes a long way to helping them fit it, as the experience of Europe with Muslims shows.
But don't think the USA is untouchable in terms of its territorial or cultural integrity. If you fill a country with third world people you are going to get third world problems. I suppose a lot will hinge on how well those born to 1st generation Mexican immigrants integrate.
I know that there is this perception that the USA is somehow unique in that it can supposedly function and prosper even if it lacks the homogenous population that is usually required for a successful nation state. And I think this idea comes from the fact that it was historically populated by a lot of different ethnic groups.
Of course it is usually pointed out that the Germans or the Irish were once regarded in much the same way as Hispanics are nowadays. But I think that was different... those groups were so similar to the typical white American in terms of culture, religion, and at a more base level, even appearance.
With Hispanics, integration might not be so easy. Although crucially, they are at least part of the Christian world, which goes a long way to helping them fit it, as the experience of Europe with Muslims shows.
But don't think the USA is untouchable in terms of its territorial or cultural integrity. If you fill a country with third world people you are going to get third world problems. I suppose a lot will hinge on how well those born to 1st generation Mexican immigrants integrate.
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr:
If you fill a country with third world people you are going to get third world problems.
That kind of sums it up imho.If you fill a country with third world people you are going to get third world problems.
Yea! Now I can start calling people who don't look like me racist! 
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr:
I can only guess as to what the consequences of this will be.
I know that there is this perception that the USA is somehow unique in that it can supposedly function and prosper even if it lacks the homogenous population that is usually required for a successful nation state. And I think this idea comes from the fact that it was historically populated by a lot of different ethnic groups.
Of course it is usually pointed out that the Germans or the Irish were once regarded in much the same way as Hispanics are nowadays. But I think that was different... those groups were so similar to the typical white American in terms of culture, religion, and at a more base level, even appearance.
With Hispanics, integration might not be so easy. Although crucially, they are at least part of the Christian world, which goes a long way to helping them fit it, as the experience of Europe with Muslims shows.
But don't think the USA is untouchable in terms of its territorial or cultural integrity. If you fill a country with third world people you are going to get third world problems. I suppose a lot will hinge on how well those born to 1st generation Mexican immigrants integrate.
I have a lot of Hispanic friends and I deal with Hispanic people on a regular basis at work and I've been under the impression that they integrate pretty well for the most part. The only Hispanics I've met that didn't speak English were either newly immigrated or older. Some Latinos that were born here don't even speak Spanish, or they speak it with a "white" accent. I can only guess as to what the consequences of this will be.
I know that there is this perception that the USA is somehow unique in that it can supposedly function and prosper even if it lacks the homogenous population that is usually required for a successful nation state. And I think this idea comes from the fact that it was historically populated by a lot of different ethnic groups.
Of course it is usually pointed out that the Germans or the Irish were once regarded in much the same way as Hispanics are nowadays. But I think that was different... those groups were so similar to the typical white American in terms of culture, religion, and at a more base level, even appearance.
With Hispanics, integration might not be so easy. Although crucially, they are at least part of the Christian world, which goes a long way to helping them fit it, as the experience of Europe with Muslims shows.
But don't think the USA is untouchable in terms of its territorial or cultural integrity. If you fill a country with third world people you are going to get third world problems. I suppose a lot will hinge on how well those born to 1st generation Mexican immigrants integrate.
The US is different from Europe in that our immigrants come from countries that border us directly, so certain parts of the US were saturated with the immigrant culture already. I think most of the problems that come from Hispanic immigration stem from the fact that thousands of them came here illegally, not because Latino culture can't integrate with American culture.
I always thought that with all the liberals in the USA something like this would be happy news.
Originally Posted by rajpoot:
I always thought that with all the liberals in the USA something like this would be happy news.
It's neither happy nor unhappy. Nor is it news.I always thought that with all the liberals in the USA something like this would be happy news.
This is only a concern for those who consider hispanics savages.
Originally Posted by rvg:
It's neither happy nor unhappy. Nor is it news.
......Because? They are just people like everyone else and even conducting a census of this matter or discussing it means thinking they are different, and that is being racist to some degree?It's neither happy nor unhappy. Nor is it news.
If that is really your reasoning then I doff my hat to you.
Originally Posted by rajpoot:
......Because? They are just people like everyone else
Yes, that is my reasoning.......Because? They are just people like everyone else
Originally Posted by rvg:
It's neither happy nor unhappy. Nor is it news.
I fail to see how such a major demographic shift could not be considered news.It's neither happy nor unhappy. Nor is it news.
Compared to the US mainstream, these people come from a different culture, a somewhat different religion, a different social class. They will vote differently, speak another language, celebrate different festivals, eat different foods. Their presence brings major political and social implications.
Because these people have come in, even walking down the street will be a completely different experience for you if you live in the areas they do. I don't get how you can't see it as newsworthy.
Neither White nor Latin are the homogeneous, monolithic ethnic groups that you imply.
At any rate, we've had a few decades to get used to them. Latin cultures are not at all a foreign thing to Americans.
At any rate, we've had a few decades to get used to them. Latin cultures are not at all a foreign thing to Americans.
Originally Posted by :
eat different foods
eat different foods
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
Neither White nor Latin are the homogeneous, monolithic ethnic groups that you imply.
From my understanding of racial issues in the USA, it is largely determined by skin colour. While you would never talk about someone being ethnically white in Europe for obvious reasons, they seem to in the USA, for similarly obvious reasons.Neither White nor Latin are the homogeneous, monolithic ethnic groups that you imply.
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
At any rate, we've had a few decades to get used to them. Latin cultures are not at all a foreign thing to Americans.
As I said it is quite possible that they do integrate and they do share some important cultural characteristics.At any rate, we've had a few decades to get used to them. Latin cultures are not at all a foreign thing to Americans.
As to my comments about their eating habbits, it's relevant. You might like a kebab or some pasta or a fajita or whatever other ethnic foods there are but we are not talking about a bit of variety, we are talking about these becoming dominant.
If you have a massive cultural shift then it's going to affect what you can buy in the shops. That matters more to me than the political side of things.
Eat different foods? What like potato which yields four times per acre more food calories then wheat. Or corn or chocolate?
I'd like to see a Britain function without potato, corn or chocolate.
Latinos are a mix already of old world and European and African and Japanese and Chinese to differing degrees. They speak Spanish and Portugese, which the last time I looked was a European language.
So you have some of the favourite food staples in Europe, European colonial descendants and major European languages.
I'd like to see a Britain function without potato, corn or chocolate.
Latinos are a mix already of old world and European and African and Japanese and Chinese to differing degrees. They speak Spanish and Portugese, which the last time I looked was a European language.
So you have some of the favourite food staples in Europe, European colonial descendants and major European languages.
I thought the article said that white - non - Hispanics are now minority.
So it's not more than 50% Hispanics, it's more than 50% Hispanics combined with Africans, Asians and so on...
Anyway, yes it will lead to a change in national identity, of course.
THIS used to be the picture we had of USA.
Of course, I would prefer Hispanics to the Somalis and Afghanis Sweden for some reason seem so fond of.
As a PS, I seriously think USA will break in the next 10 years. The gap between the rich and poor grows wider by the day, and that is only still working because of the American Dream. But hey, soon people will realize that they happily would give up a chance to be filthy rich, in return for food on the table, a steady home, and maybe even a little vacation - without having 3 jobs.
So it's not more than 50% Hispanics, it's more than 50% Hispanics combined with Africans, Asians and so on...
Anyway, yes it will lead to a change in national identity, of course.
THIS used to be the picture we had of USA.
Of course, I would prefer Hispanics to the Somalis and Afghanis Sweden for some reason seem so fond of.
As a PS, I seriously think USA will break in the next 10 years. The gap between the rich and poor grows wider by the day, and that is only still working because of the American Dream. But hey, soon people will realize that they happily would give up a chance to be filthy rich, in return for food on the table, a steady home, and maybe even a little vacation - without having 3 jobs.
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr:
I fail to see how such a major demographic shift could not be considered news.
Of course you will. That's because you approach this from a European perspective.I fail to see how such a major demographic shift could not be considered news.
Originally Posted by :
Compared to the US mainstream, these people come from a different culture, a somewhat different religion, a different social class. They will vote differently, speak another language, celebrate different festivals, eat different foods. Their presence brings major political and social implications.
Wrong. We're talking about babies being born here in the good ole US of A, exposed to American culture, speaking English pretty much everywhere outside of their home. As for religion, Catholicism has been the single largest denomination here for many decades already.Compared to the US mainstream, these people come from a different culture, a somewhat different religion, a different social class. They will vote differently, speak another language, celebrate different festivals, eat different foods. Their presence brings major political and social implications.
Originally Posted by :
Because these people have come in, even walking down the street will be a completely different experience for you if you live in the areas they do. I don't get how you can't see it as newsworthy.
Really? Should I begin to expect something different from my Colombian next door neighbor?Because these people have come in, even walking down the street will be a completely different experience for you if you live in the areas they do. I don't get how you can't see it as newsworthy.
I'm afraid I can't take this seriously. I live in New York City.
Originally Posted by :
[...]we are talking about these becoming dominant.
If you have a massive cultural shift then it's going to affect what you can buy in the shops. That matters more to me than the political side of things.
This in particular is silly.[...]we are talking about these becoming dominant.
If you have a massive cultural shift then it's going to affect what you can buy in the shops. That matters more to me than the political side of things.
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr:
eat different foods.
You have obviously never been to Southern California.eat different foods.
This thread and the replies from the yanks here shows me once again that Europe still has a lot to learn from the US.
I'm sorry but I have to say I expected this sort of complacency from the Americans on this board.
So apparently I'm wrong because I'm looking at this from a "European perspective". The thing is, there's no reason to believe that if certain patterns are observed in Europe and the same conditions existed in the USA, the patterns could not be observed there as well.
I know there is this idea that America is somehow immune to Balkanization, and that it is infinitely superior to any other nation on the planet and its supposedly tolerant and diverse nature means that it can assimilate any ethnic group.
But there's no reason to believe all that. Your ability to assimilate different immigrant groups is a national myth. American might think the Irish or Germans count, but tbh in Europe if somebody moved from one (western) European state to another, I don't think they would even be considered an immigrant by most people.
The fact is that the demographic changes taking place in America right now are unprecendented, America has never faced anything like it before.
And on the bit about food, I'll not quote every response I'll just answer them here. Firstly, no, I have never been to Southern California, in fact I never leave my 100% white chav-ridden neighbourhood. U MAD? And secondly, the point on New York is silly because it is in fact cosmopolitan and not dominated by any single ethnic group.
So apparently I'm wrong because I'm looking at this from a "European perspective". The thing is, there's no reason to believe that if certain patterns are observed in Europe and the same conditions existed in the USA, the patterns could not be observed there as well.
I know there is this idea that America is somehow immune to Balkanization, and that it is infinitely superior to any other nation on the planet and its supposedly tolerant and diverse nature means that it can assimilate any ethnic group.
But there's no reason to believe all that. Your ability to assimilate different immigrant groups is a national myth. American might think the Irish or Germans count, but tbh in Europe if somebody moved from one (western) European state to another, I don't think they would even be considered an immigrant by most people.
The fact is that the demographic changes taking place in America right now are unprecendented, America has never faced anything like it before.
And on the bit about food, I'll not quote every response I'll just answer them here. Firstly, no, I have never been to Southern California, in fact I never leave my 100% white chav-ridden neighbourhood. U MAD? And secondly, the point on New York is silly because it is in fact cosmopolitan and not dominated by any single ethnic group.
Originally Posted by :
the point on New York is silly because it is in fact cosmopolitan and not dominated by any single ethnic group.
Neither would America be. That's the point. Hencethe point on New York is silly because it is in fact cosmopolitan and not dominated by any single ethnic group.
Originally Posted by :
Neither White nor Latin are the homogeneous, monolithic ethnic groups that you imply.
E.g. the rising numbers of Latin Evangelicals, both in (and out!) of the USNeither White nor Latin are the homogeneous, monolithic ethnic groups that you imply.
Edit: Imprecision plagues this thread, as well.
Firstly: Hispanics, as per my point, can be black, white, Asian, what I might oxymoronically call "pure", etc.
Secondly: Kadagar's clarification seems to have passed unnotced. Hispanic births have been dropping over the last few years, due to the recession. All minority births combined have outpaced the Non-Hispanic white figures. Hispanics, in all their heterogeneity, seem to make up only a quarter of births.
Are you quite through with the alarmism?
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr:
I'm sorry but I have to say I expected this sort of complacency from the Americans on this board.
Why are you sorry? It's great!I'm sorry but I have to say I expected this sort of complacency from the Americans on this board.
Originally Posted by :
So apparently I'm wrong because I'm looking at this from a "European perspective". The thing is, there's no reason to believe that if certain patterns are observed in Europe and the same conditions existed in the USA, the patterns could not be observed there as well.
That's right. America is not Europe. Many of us might have European roots, but we're not Europeans. America is not a genetic pattern or a color of one's skin, it's a state of mind. Which is why anybody can become 100% American even if they were born and raised elsewhere.So apparently I'm wrong because I'm looking at this from a "European perspective". The thing is, there's no reason to believe that if certain patterns are observed in Europe and the same conditions existed in the USA, the patterns could not be observed there as well.
Originally Posted by :
I know there is this idea that America is somehow immune to Balkanization, and that it is infinitely superior to any other nation on the planet and its supposedly tolerant and diverse nature means that it can assimilate any ethnic group.
We can and we do. What's our secret? We do not try to assimilate anybody. Nobody is required to learn English, nobody is required to accept American values or American culture. At the same time, we do not babysit anyone. Everyone is free to succeed or fail.I know there is this idea that America is somehow immune to Balkanization, and that it is infinitely superior to any other nation on the planet and its supposedly tolerant and diverse nature means that it can assimilate any ethnic group.
Originally Posted by :
But there's no reason to believe all that. Your ability to assimilate different immigrant groups is a national myth. American might think the Irish or Germans count, but tbh in Europe if somebody moved from one (western) European state to another, I don't think they would even be considered an immigrant by most people.
I find that hard to believe. We hosted a couple of Germans from the parent corporation back a few months ago, and they just kept on harping about how they hate the Dutch. That was after we told them that there are lots of Dutch-Americans in Michigan.But there's no reason to believe all that. Your ability to assimilate different immigrant groups is a national myth. American might think the Irish or Germans count, but tbh in Europe if somebody moved from one (western) European state to another, I don't think they would even be considered an immigrant by most people.
Originally Posted by :
The fact is that the demographic changes taking place in America right now are unprecendented, America has never faced anything like it before.
Been there done that. The Irish, the Chinese, the Jews, the [insert an ethnicity here].The fact is that the demographic changes taking place in America right now are unprecendented, America has never faced anything like it before.
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
Neither would America be. That's the point.
No. New York is a city. When a city is diverse you call it cosmopolitan. When a nation is racially divided by different ethnic groups each dominating their own respective parts of it, you call it racially divided. Because what functions at the city level doesn't necessarily translate to the national level.Neither would America be. That's the point.
So this is the reality for a future white American in what has become 95% Hispanic Los Angeles. He will walk into a shop to get some burgers and roast chicken and whatever white Americans eat, when suddenly... all they sell is tacos nachos and fajitas. And every shop will be the same. And he will be left wondering how he became a stranger in his own country.
It will be like Chinatown, except the whole town in Chinatown.
Does it sound silly? Well, it won't be so funny when you walk outside your door and that's the reality.
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
E.g. the rising numbers of Latin Evangelicals, both in (and out!) of the US
If you read my posts you will see that I have acknowledged the cultural closeness and the integration that has already taken place. As I said, the issue is the pace of the demographic change, and whether it will reach a point where the assimilation starts taking place in the opposite direction.E.g. the rising numbers of Latin Evangelicals, both in (and out!) of the US
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
It was a good run fellas. We are now unwashed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457
Gotta say, I don't really care very much. I never thought of "white people" as a team. It was a good run fellas. We are now unwashed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457
I'm more concerned about the economic status of the people who are having kids and what it means for our long-term financial stability as a nation.
If you can love, raise a family and have grandchildren who cares which way your genes wandered out of the same patch of Africa.
Originally Posted by rvg:
That's right. America is not Europe. Many of us might have European roots, but we're not Europeans. America is not a genetic pattern or a color of one's skin, it's a state of mind. Which is why anybody can become 100% American even if they were born and raised elsewhere.
This is nothing revolutionary, it is bog standard civic nationalism. The same type of nationalism that happens to be dominant in Britain and France, which continue to have serious problems integrating immigrants.That's right. America is not Europe. Many of us might have European roots, but we're not Europeans. America is not a genetic pattern or a color of one's skin, it's a state of mind. Which is why anybody can become 100% American even if they were born and raised elsewhere.
Originally Posted by rvg:
We can and we do. What's our secret? We do not try to assimilate anybody. Nobody is required to learn English, nobody is required to accept American values or American culture. At the same time, we do not babysit anyone. Everyone is free to succeed or fail.
You don't have a secret because you have never really assimilated anybody. Like I said, within Europe, the Irish or Germans wouldn't even count. It's not like we don't have small, successful Asian communities here. But when they start pouring in from the third world, there's gonna be problems.We can and we do. What's our secret? We do not try to assimilate anybody. Nobody is required to learn English, nobody is required to accept American values or American culture. At the same time, we do not babysit anyone. Everyone is free to succeed or fail.
Originally Posted by rvg:
I find that hard to believe. We hosted a couple of Germans from the parent corporation back a few months ago, and they just kept on harping about how they hate the Dutch. That was after we told them that there are lots of Dutch-Americans in Michigan.
It's a bit of banter you get between neighbouring European states because of their history of conflict and rivalry. It just doesn't compare to say, the culture shock of modern Muslim immigrants. The culture shock aspect of Hispanic immigrants is probably somewhere in between. The might integrate they might not. I just think you are too complacent.I find that hard to believe. We hosted a couple of Germans from the parent corporation back a few months ago, and they just kept on harping about how they hate the Dutch. That was after we told them that there are lots of Dutch-Americans in Michigan.
Originally Posted by rvg:
Been there done that. The Irish, the Chinese, the Jews, the [insert an ethnicity here].
I've covered these examples and like I said for you to be complacent based on those experiences just shows that you don't appreciate what is happening right now. IIRC black people make up something like 13% of the US population, so if their birth rates are fairly average then I would expect around 1/3 of the coming generation to be Hispanic (feel free to correct this if wrong). Been there done that. The Irish, the Chinese, the Jews, the [insert an ethnicity here].
Now, I'm pretty sure that the Irish, Jews, or Chinese never made up anything like 1/3 of the US population. And out of those lot you only really assimilated the Irish.
What makes you so confident that having a massive Hispanic population won't significantly alter American culture, American politics, everyday American life etc.
The only thing that bothers me about Mexicans in particular (and I know that Mexicans only make up a portion of non-white minorities) is Mexico. They seem to have a higher tolerance for corruption, mismanagement, low productivity, and organized crime among many other negatives. The origins of the country are extremely similar to the US, but the culture and/or society just do not seem to work very well in comparison to the US (and I'm certainly not saying the US is perfect). I would hate for such bad habits to be carried over the border and then become commonly accepted as Mexicans become majorities in many areas.
Read my edit.
Your predictions are utterly invalid because your premises are utterly flawed.
Your predictions are utterly invalid because your premises are utterly flawed.
Originally Posted by :
So this is the reality for a future white American in what has become 95% Hispanic Los Angeles. He will walk into a shop to get some burgers and roast chicken and whatever white Americans eat, when suddenly... all they sell is tacos nachos and fajitas. And every shop will be the same. And he will be left wondering how he became a stranger in his own country.
This amply demonstrates what I mean...So this is the reality for a future white American in what has become 95% Hispanic Los Angeles. He will walk into a shop to get some burgers and roast chicken and whatever white Americans eat, when suddenly... all they sell is tacos nachos and fajitas. And every shop will be the same. And he will be left wondering how he became a stranger in his own country.
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