Fast and Furious

[Lemur]

This is the most detailed expose I've yet seen on the ATF gunwalking scandal, including numerous links to original documents and firsthand reporting. Curious to hear what Orgahs think. Summary:

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust. [...]

[A] six-month Fortune investigation reveals that the public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies. Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case. Several, including Voth, are speaking out for the first time.
How Fast and Furious reached the headlines is a strange and unsettling saga, one that reveals a lot about politics and media today.

[Strike For The South]

These agents are going to be crucified while the politicans are going to walk scot free

The justice is palpable

[Lemur]

Doing some lunchtime reading, I find the prosecutor's behavior incredibly hard to understand.

Prosecutors repeatedly rebuffed Voth's requests. After examining one suspect's garbage, agents learned he was on food stamps yet had plunked down more than $300,000 for 476 firearms in six months. Voth asked if the ATF could arrest him for fraudulently accepting public assistance when he was spending such huge sums. Prosecutor Hurley said no. In another instance, a young jobless suspect paid more than $10,000 for a 50-caliber tripod-mounted sniper rifle. According to Voth, Hurley told the agents they lacked proof that he hadn't bought the gun for himself.

[drone]

New facts are still coming to light—and will likely continue to do so with the Justice Department inspector general's report expected in coming months. Among the discoveries: Fast and Furious' top suspects—Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau. That came as news to the ATF agents in Group VII.

I lol'ed. Your tax dollars at work!

[Major Robert Dump]

The only good that will ever come from any of this is that the operation was named after one of the great cinema masterpieces of our generation. I heard there is a similar operation involving pharmacies called Operation Ishtar.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Oh but I doubt this is all that atypical. It's that little issue of being a federation of states (with attending rights & powers) that mean one border state can spoil it for the rest of them, or alternatively that because there's no single definite rule book any federal sort of initiative is going to have to work around the local roadblock.

In reverse, for example, you have the Stasi NYPD.

[drone]

Oh but I doubt this is all that atypical. It's that little issue of being a federation of states (with attending rights & powers) that mean one border state can spoil it for the rest of them, or alternatively that because there's no single definite rule book any federal sort of initiative is going to have to work around the local roadblock.

I don't think this is the case. The ATF, FBI, and the prosecutors involved are all at the federal level.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I don't think this is the case. The ATF, FBI, and the prosecutors involved are all at the federal level.

Reading the article the impression I got was that the root cause was largely Arizona not being cooperative//having a rather different outlook towards guns which in turn lead to federals trying to circumvent Arizona.

[Papewaio]

Pfft it's a problem in the corporate world too. Ever heard of corporate information silos?

Each corporate team has their own KPIs, there own view of the corporation and their own hammer in problem solving.

I've seen KPIs which counter each other and ones that reward spending all the budget.

[drone]

Reading the article the impression I got was that the root cause was largely Arizona not being cooperative//having a rather different outlook towards guns which in turn lead to federals trying to circumvent Arizona.

Arizona has somewhat lax laws on firearm purchases, which is why the ATF was trying to find which ones were being bought for the cartels. But the infighting and overall nonsense was between the feds.

I'm curious why they just didn't bust the straw purchasers for tax fraud/evasion. Bums off the street with gobs of cash, should have been easy.

[Lemur]

I'm curious why they just didn't bust the straw purchasers for tax fraud/evasion. Bums off the street with gobs of cash, should have been easy.

Seems like a question for the prosecutors. According to the reporting, the field agents were bringing them plenty of options, such as the dude on food stamps spending $300k+ on firearms. For whatever reason, the prosecutors would not move. Why? That's the question.

[Xiahou]

It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them. A buyer who certified that the guns were for himself, then handed them off minutes later, hadn't necessarily lied and was free to change his mind. Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn't mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize.

This is weapons-grade BS. Straw purchasing is illegal under federal law. If US Attorneys said otherwise, they are lying or shockingly incompetent.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The point is, "straw purchaser" doesn't mean what you think it does in Arizona. In Arizona you're only a straw purchaser if you admit to being a straw purchaser, because otherwise it is not possible to prove that you didn't just "change your mind".

EDIT: According to the article at least, that is how the law is interpreted in Arizona.

[Xiahou]

It's a federal law- not a state law.

When you buy a gun, you are required to fill out a form as part of the background check in which you swear that you are purchasing the guns for yourself. Yes, you are allowed to later sell the guns or gift them- but you cannot purchase them with the intent of reselling them, a straw purchase. According to the article, prosecutors said they would be unable to prove that the straw purchasers had actually made straw purchases instead of buying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of guns with their own money, driving them to a location and selling them on a whim. That alone beggars belief, but then consider that these straw purchasers repeatedly came back and bought/sold more guns and prosecutors allegedly said they still couldn't make a case? Really? Put that in front of a jury and see if they believe they're straw purchases.

Unsuprisingly, Sen. Chuck Grassley disagrees with the article's characterizations of Voth. He has released some of Voth's emails to support his argument. Of particular interest to me is where concerned gun sellers question Voth on if they'll be protected from prosecution by selling guns to obvious straw purchasers and that they're worried the guns will end up in Mexico. Voth says he'll setup a meeting with a US Attorney to reassure them and that to appreciates their cooperation in continuing to sell guns and assures him they're "continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of investigative techniques which I cannot go into detail"- when they arent....

[Noncommunist]

And there's also theories that Obama is helping the Sinaloa cartel in order to weaken Mexico and eventually achieve Manifest Destiny.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...ous_conspiracy

[Major Robert Dump]

HAHA our newest holding: Mexico.

Man what a great acquisition that would be.

[Crazed Rabbit]

A rebuttal to Fortune's investigation;

In 2010, a gun dealer emailed Voth because a straw purchaser had placed a large order and the dealer wanted to know if he should order more stock. Once again, so he could comply with ATF's order to sell. Voth told him, go right ahead. Order the guns, sell to the bad guys.

On June 17, 2010 a concerned dealer wrote, "As per our discussion about over communicating I wanted to share some concerns that came up. Tuesday night I watched a segment of a Fox News report about firearms and the border. The segment, if the information was correct, is disturbing to me. When you, Emory and I met on May 13th I shared my concerns with you guys that I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys. I guess I am looking for a bit of reassurance that the guns are not getting south or in wrong hands. I know it is an ongoing investigation so there is limited information you can share with me. But as I said in our meeting, I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents [sic] safety because I have some very close friends that are U.S. Border Patrol agents in southern AZ as well as my concern for all the agents [sic] safety that protect our country. If possible please email me back and share with me any reassurances that you can. As always thank you for your time and I send this email with all respect and a heart felt concern to do the right thing."

Voth sent an email on April 2, 2010 saying, "Our subjects purchased 359 firearms during the month of March alone, to include numerous Barrett .50 caliber rifles," he went on, "I believe we are righteous in our plan to dismantle this entire organization and to rush in to arrest any one person without taking in to account the entire scope of the conspiracy would be ill advices to the overall good of the mission." In another email, Voth mentioned 1200 people killed in March 2010, yet still called the program "righteous."

Becca Watkins, House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform spokeswoman, has issued the following statement:

“Fortune’s story is a fantasy made up almost entirely from the accounts of individuals involved in the reckless tactics that took place in Operation Fast and Furious. It contains factual errors – including the false statement that Chairman Issa has called for Attorney General Holder’s resignation – and multiple distortions. It also hides critical information from readers – including a report in the Wall Street Journal – indicating that its primary sources may be facing criminal charges. Congressional staff gave Fortune Magazine numerous examples of false statements made by the story’s primary source and the magazine did not dispute this information. It did not, however, explain this material to its readers. The one point of agreement the Committee has with this story is its emphasis on the role Justice Department prosecutors, not just ATF agents, played in guns being transferred to drug cartels in Mexico. The allegations made in the story have been examined and rejected by congressional Republicans, Democrats, and the Justice Department.”

So it seems you shouldn't write 'investigations' based on interviewing just the accused people.

CR

[Lemur]

So it seems you shouldn't write 'investigations' based on interviewing just the accused people.

Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case.

Incidentally, I think there's reasonable doubt about nearly everyone involved in the current Kabuki theater. Issa and his staff have a lot riding on this being a scandal bigger then Watergate, Voth is under investigation, Dodson clearly has his own agenda, prosecutors such as Emory Hurley have some very strange behavior to answer for, Holder has been in damage control mode so long I doubt he knows what not being in damage control feels like, Obama wants to limit the scandal, the ATF has been functioning as an abused child since Waco, and congressional Republicans are so committed to making President 44 a one-termer that there's little they wouldn't do short of open violence to undermine the administration.

Throw in the far-fetched and generally delusional conspiracy theories that are being floated by people who know better.

I think it's dangerous to take anyone in this situation at their word. So I appreciate Fortune's reporting, much as I appreciate the links to original emails and documents.

[Xiahou]

I think it's dangerous to take anyone in this situation at their word. So I appreciate Fortune's reporting, much as I appreciate the links to original emails and documents.

I tend to think primary sources are due more "appreciation" than secondary sources and beyond.... Release the documents- it's the only way this will get beyond the contradicting claims.

Also, as to the contempt charges, I think it's nice to see the legislative branch finally make an attempt to assert itself against the executive. It's an improvement from the subservient role it assigned itself for the last.... 12 years?

[HoreTore]

HAHA our newest holding: Mexico.

Man what a great acquisition that would be.

It's your best shot at getting a national football team who can beat someone as well...

[Lemur]

Release the documents- it's the only way this will get beyond the contradicting claims.

I was under the impression that thousands of documents had already been released to the subcommittee. The disagreement was over scope, not whether or not anything would be released.

Anyway, with the contempt vote I think we are seeing the end of the investigation, not the beginning. Now the ATF can go back to being shell-shocked and frightened of their own shadow, and the NRA can claim yet another victory against NOBAMA taking all of our guns away.

In a similar vein, I would like to claim victory against the ice giants. What's that you say? There are no ice giants? Hence my victory.

[ajaxfetish]

It's your best shot at getting a national football team who can beat someone as well...

Bah, we've already got 3-time olympic gold medalists, including the last two games.

Ajax

[HoreTore]

Bah, we've already got 3-time olympic gold medalists, including the last two games.

Ajax

Olympic gold medals? You just proved my point, good sir

[Xiahou]

I was under the impression that thousands of documents had already been released to the subcommittee. The disagreement was over scope, not whether or not anything would be released.

Yes, they've released a fraction of what was requested- good on them.

Anyway, with the contempt vote I think we are seeing the end of the investigation, not the beginning. Now the ATF can go back to being shell-shocked and frightened of their own shadow, and the NRA can claim yet another victory against NOBAMA taking all of our guns away.

Of course- the investigation could have continued completely unimpeded without the requested information. You don't need evidence for an investigation. Just be happy with whatever they give you.

In a similar vein, I would like to claim victory against the ice giants. What's that you say? There are no ice giants? Hence my victory.

What are you talking about?

[Lemur]

Yes, they've released a fraction of what was requested- good on them.

In your earlier post, you phrased it as a blanket "Release the documents"; some small clarification was in order.

What are you talking about?

Jokes, like cats, die when dissected. But I assure you one sentence follows the other.

[Montmorency]

Jokes, like cats, die when dissected.

If they need to be dissected, they are already dead.

[Lemur]

If they need to be dissected, they are already dead.

Sure, "vivisected" would be more accurate, but then you lose the alliterative "d", so I was willing to let it slide. Clearly you were not.