Please depict the Gauls accurately this time (duplicate from TWcenter)

[wangchang]

Yep, but what I fear, is that I don't see CA taking any special attention when making the gallic cities. I'm also afraid they will give the gauls and the german the same generic cities. And it would be even worse if they forbid gauls to have stone walls.

The problem is that cities aren't as moddable as units : unit inaccuracy can easily be compensated by the mod, while the cities won't.
That's why I wrote this in many forums : to have a chance to get CA's attention on the matter, before it's too late.

[Fisherking]

Several things on Celtic fortifications and other matters:

Celtic settlements, described by Caesar as Oppidum, were protected by walls of earth and timber and faced with stone. They were topped with wooden palisades to enhance the defense and would often be ditched in front of the walls. Some sites have inner and outer walls and other defensive works.

They were immune to ramming and fire and usually of a height of 4m or more. The gatehouses were further protected and difficult to assault.

It is no wonder that the Romans usually took them by siege as the only other choice would be by escalade.

Nor was this the end of the matter. The interior of the settlements were laid out in blocks that were also ringed by palisades or fencing. This would not be a happy prospect for Roman Soldiers trained to fight in formations.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Op...ing_osttor.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mu...rao_de_Las.jpg

http://marisoccidua.wordpress.com/20...ribrao-de-las/


We know the Celts built excellent roads, as Caesar said so himself, which aided his conquest’s speed.

It is also interesting to note that after the Roman Conquest of Gaul a much wider area of Celtic settlement were abandoned, due to economic collapse.

As to the backwardness of the Celts, one fact speaks volumes.

Prior to the conquest of Gaul it was the habit of the Roman Elite to use Greek Slaves to educate their children. Afterwards however, it was Gaulish tutors who were the most sought after.

http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/page.php?p=10839
Until fairly recently it had been taken as fact that the Celts left no written records whatsoever. However, recent advances have not only uncovered examples of Celtic writing, especially the Gaulish dialect, but also have allowed us to decipher it to an extent. While no historical writings have been discovered, if they exist at all, existing examples of Celtic writing have significantly added to our understanding. While no full alphabet has been uncovered in any of the known scripts used (for Gaulish: Etruscan, Greek, and Latin) it is now a misconception to say the Celts lacked writing.


I remember the Celtic settlements from RTW. They were flimsy little things of no account. There was never a siege. Just build a ram or if you had an elephant, charge!

It doesn’t hold up to what archaeology tells us.

I guess we will just wait and see what CA gives us.

[Shigawire]

Celtic settlements, described by Caesar as Oppidum, were protected by walls of earth and timber and faced with stone. They were topped with wooden palisades to enhance the defense and would often be ditched in front of the walls. Some sites have inner and outer walls and other defensive works.

They were immune to ramming and fire and usually of a height of 4m or more. The gatehouses were further protected and difficult to assault.

It is no wonder that the Romans usually took them by siege as the only other choice would be by escalade.

Nor was this the end of the matter. The interior of the settlements were laid out in blocks that were also ringed by palisades or fencing. This would not be a happy prospect for Roman Soldiers trained to fight in formations.
<snip>
Prior to the conquest of Gaul it was the habit of the Roman Elite to use Greek Slaves to educate their children. Afterwards however, it was Gaulish tutors who were the most sought after.

I remember the Celtic settlements from RTW. They were flimsy little things of no account. There was never a siege. Just build a ram or if you had an elephant, charge!
<snip>
It doesn’t hold up to what archaeology tells us.

Yes, thank you for the post. The "Murus Gallicus" of the Oppida was even mentioned by Julius Caesar in "De Bello Gallico." He is impressed about the wall's qualities to withstand: ramming, artillery, fire. Hell, I'm sure undermining it wouldn't be easy either, on account of the timber lattices.
There was only ONE way to conquer the Murus Gallicus - over the top. And as they reached the top, they would have to contend with spikes like barbed wire fences, not to mention angry celts.
Thankfully the Romans were experts at brute force over the top. The Romans had learned siege warfare 200 years after everyone else in the Mediterranean. All the way until ca 200 BC, the Romans weren't using siege towers or siege machines. They had ladders, they built ramps of dirt over the wall. They went for the brute force approach. If they had artillery, it was because they had captured it from the enemy (f.ex. 2nd Punic War). It was in the Roman Macedon campaign where they learned the way of the Greek siege train.

My higgs boson it's a breeze to be at the Org sometimes. I've been discussing this exact same thread on the official TW forums (same author, zozor). The ignorance and stubbornness over there is astounding compared to the Org. The same old false dichotomy of "realism vs history" comes up. I keep asking for an example where "fun" yields for "history." Then they keep coming up with strawman arguments, that I attentively shoot down. But they just aren't receptive.

Here are their misconceptions of Gauls that I picked up on the .Com
-"Tiny wooden towns, paper thin palisade walls"
-"Gauls' grasp on warfare was crude and irresponsible"
etc

Instead of being agnostic on the subject, they pretend to know something they don't know:
they assume that powerful, dense and filthy urbanization is better than a decentralized impotent confederacy.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Excellent posting, folks! I'm learning alot about a very fascinating culture...

[wangchang]

Yes, thank you for the post. The "Murus Gallicus" of the Oppida was even mentioned by Julius Caesar in "De Bello Gallico." He is impressed about the wall's qualities to withstand: ramming, artillery, fire. Hell, I'm sure undermining it wouldn't be easy either, on account of the timber lattices.
There was only ONE way to conquer the Murus Gallicus - over the top. And as they reached the top, they would have to contend with spikes like barbed wire fences, not to mention angry celts.
Thankfully the Romans were experts at brute force over the top. The Romans had learned siege warfare 200 years after everyone else in the Mediterranean. All the way until ca 200 BC, the Romans weren't using siege towers or siege machines. They had ladders, they built ramps of dirt over the wall. They went for the brute force approach. If they had artillery, it was because they had captured it from the enemy (f.ex. 2nd Punic War). It was in the Roman Macedon campaign where they learned the way of the Greek siege train.

My higgs boson it's a breeze to be at the Org sometimes. I've been discussing this exact same thread on the official TW forums (same author, zozor). The ignorance and stubbornness over there is astounding compared to the Org. The same old false dichotomy of "realism vs history" comes up. I keep asking for an example where "fun" yields for "history." Then they keep coming up with strawman arguments, that I attentively shoot down. But they just aren't receptive.

Here are their misconceptions of Gauls that I picked up on the .Com
-"Tiny wooden towns, paper thin palisade walls"
-"Gauls' grasp on warfare was crude and irresponsible"
etc

Instead of being agnostic on the subject, they pretend to know something they don't know:
they assume that powerful, dense and filthy urbanization is better than a decentralized impotent confederacy.

I agree with that too

It's funny to see that all the best posters I saw on the other forums come here to post on this thread too.
It must have something to do with this .org in the address bar :P

[Moros]

It is a special place alright!

A haven of maturity on the internet.

[wangchang]

It is a special place alright!

A haven of maturity on the internet.

Indeed.

About this, i'm thinking about trying to attract CA attention's on the matter. I know the EB guys did that in the past about the celt/germans, it did failed, but it wasn't the same CA than today, their budget was limited and they didn't put as much attention into details as they are doing today.
THe fact that there are also previous modders in their rank now makes me think they are more receptive to the community.
Any tips to how to contact CA or at least attract their attention?

[cunctator]

I don't see why contacting CA should be useful. If they really want to depict the Celts accurately this time they will have no problem getting the required data. Unlike in 2003/2004 even the most lazy people can find decent information about Celtic oppida and their defenses after a quick wikipedia search. At least in the german wikipedia already with some relevant scientific literature listed in the bibliography.
Also CA is already aware of EB as the mentioned the mod several times favorably in the past.

[SirGrotius]

I've always viewed TW games as somewhat historical, in terms of concept and spirit, but I never expect them to be similar to the early Paradox Interactive games, for instance. That said, despite the OP's potentially ranting style, I agree that the Gauls were short shifted, and some bumps in their tech, look of their cities, etc. should be incorporated.

[wangchang]

Several things on Celtic fortifications and other matters:

Celtic settlements, described by Caesar as Oppidum, were protected by walls of earth and timber and faced with stone. They were topped with wooden palisades to enhance the defense and would often be ditched in front of the walls. Some sites have inner and outer walls and other defensive works.

They were immune to ramming and fire and usually of a height of 4m or more. The gatehouses were further protected and difficult to assault.

It is no wonder that the Romans usually took them by siege as the only other choice would be by escalade.

Nor was this the end of the matter. The interior of the settlements were laid out in blocks that were also ringed by palisades or fencing. This would not be a happy prospect for Roman Soldiers trained to fight in formations.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Op...ing_osttor.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mu...rao_de_Las.jpg

http://marisoccidua.wordpress.com/20...ribrao-de-las/


We know the Celts built excellent roads, as Caesar said so himself, which aided his conquest’s speed.

It is also interesting to note that after the Roman Conquest of Gaul a much wider area of Celtic settlement were abandoned, due to economic collapse.

As to the backwardness of the Celts, one fact speaks volumes.

Prior to the conquest of Gaul it was the habit of the Roman Elite to use Greek Slaves to educate their children. Afterwards however, it was Gaulish tutors who were the most sought after.

http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/page.php?p=10839
Until fairly recently it had been taken as fact that the Celts left no written records whatsoever. However, recent advances have not only uncovered examples of Celtic writing, especially the Gaulish dialect, but also have allowed us to decipher it to an extent. While no historical writings have been discovered, if they exist at all, existing examples of Celtic writing have significantly added to our understanding. While no full alphabet has been uncovered in any of the known scripts used (for Gaulish: Etruscan, Greek, and Latin) it is now a misconception to say the Celts lacked writing.


I remember the Celtic settlements from RTW. They were flimsy little things of no account. There was never a siege. Just build a ram or if you had an elephant, charge!

It doesn’t hold up to what archaeology tells us.

I guess we will just wait and see what CA gives us.

Excellent post, I saw it in the TWcenter (unfortunately I couldn't reply there). :)

You summed all in just a few sentences. I almost think there should be several threads for each different matter about the celts.
At some point we should make a mega-thread about all that has been said on the misconceptions about the celts post it in every forums and even send it to CA.
That's what I tried to do with this thread but it's still incomplete and not concise enough.
Thanks for trying to keep my TWcenter thread alive by the way