Why is it okay for missionaries to lie?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I do believe I already have - if they were telling the truth, they would've contacted mainstream media. They do not, so it's obvious that they know its a fake.

I mean, why on earth would an organization focused on saving millions keep quiet about an event which could potentially save millions? There's no logic in that, hence it's a lie.

And do I really have to point out that there is zero evidence of said boy ever existing? It should be quite obvious that he too is a fabrication.

You looked it up on the Nigerian census?

Read the report - the "Native" doctor declared the boy dead. The witchdoctor said the boy was dead, the parents took him to the mission and after three days he woke up.

Who is the pastor holding in the photograph? His own son?

THINK critically, there is no evidence of fabrication - what there is, is evidence that the locals are medically ignorant.

As to the why, these things happen all the time in Africa, they used to happen all the time in Europe too - the reason you used to have a Vigil with an open casket is because you couldn't necessarily be sure the man was dead. More recently you had bells atached to caskets and Swedish enbalmers used to drive a knife straight into the artery to make sure they were dead.

[HoreTore]

You looked it up on the Nigerian census?

Read the report - the "Native" doctor declared the boy dead. The witchdoctor said the boy was dead, the parents took him to the mission and after three days he woke up.

Who is the pastor holding in the photograph? His own son?

THINK critically, there is no evidence of fabrication - what there is, is evidence that the locals are medically ignorant.

As to the why, these things happen all the time in Africa, they used to happen all the time in Europe too - the reason you used to have a Vigil with an open casket is because you couldn't necessarily be sure the man was dead. More recently you had bells atached to caskets and Swedish enbalmers used to drive a knife straight into the artery to make sure they were dead.

What we have is this:
1. One obvious and big lie(raising the dead).
2. No other sources. At all. The only mention of this incident is on that webpage. None of the names of the involved give any results on google.
3. But we know of several similar stories. Very similar in fact, the biggest difference between them is the names of the involved.

Add them all together, and we have a certain fabrication. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think otherwise.

The "night of the living dead"-type stories are one of my absolute favourite fabrications though. A close tie with the story about the doctor(usually anonymous, sometimes given a generic name like J. Smith) who measured a soul leaving the body of someone dying "scientifically".

Edit: and if your "ignorant blacks"-theory was correct, it would still be a lie, since the missionaries would know what really happened, but instead chose to spread the lie about raising the dead.

[Strike For The South]

I love you HoreTore, I really do.

[Montmorency]

What he's saying is that sometimes people end up in a comatose state with very weak vitals, and can be mistakenly declared dead while in such a state; if and when they recover - especially if it's while in a morgue - it appears as though that individual has "returned from the dead".

As in, without explicit intent to deceive - when it's this sort of situation, at least.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What we have is this:
1. One obvious and big lie(raising the dead).
2. No other sources. At all. The only mention of this incident is on that webpage. None of the names of the involved give any results on google.
3. But we know of several similar stories. Very similar in fact, the biggest difference between them is the names of the involved.

Add them all together, and we have a certain fabrication. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think otherwise.

The "night of the living dead"-type stories are one of my absolute favourite fabrications though. A close tie with the story about the doctor(usually anonymous, sometimes given a generic name like J. Smith) who measured a soul leaving the body of someone dying "scientifically".

Edit: and if your "ignorant blacks"-theory was correct, it would still be a lie, since the missionaries would know what really happened, but instead chose to spread the lie about raising the dead.

It's just that they're religious, so you assume they're evil rather than just wrong.

You also believe I'm evil, or at least practicing cognative dissonance, because you cannot concieve of how a rational human being could come to believe in miracles.

That's the kind of person you are - but you are wrong to assume everyone's brain works as yours does.

What he's saying is that sometimes people end up in a comatose state with very weak vitals, and can be mistakenly declared dead while in such a state; if and when they recover - especially if it's while in a morgue - it appears as though that individual has "returned from the dead".

As in, without explicit intent to deceive - when it's this sort of situation, at least.

Nice to know I'm not writing Hittite.

[HoreTore]

It's just that they're religious, so you assume they're evil rather than just wrong.

You also believe I'm evil, or at least practicing cognative dissonance, because you cannot concieve of how a rational human being could come to believe in miracles.

Evil? I created this thread because I'm having trouble finding an explanation for this behaviour. And for the record, "evil" isn't one of my assumptions, try "con artist" instead. Or "blinded by faith". As for me thinking you're "evil", that's just silly.

I haven't commented on your "miracle"(or whatever it was), have I? I have noted that you don't believe they raised the dead, and as such you don't believe anything I would call absurd. The "smaller miracles" are quite different to the outrageous ones like raising the dead. The motivations of those believing in one but not the other is obviously quite different to the ones believing god raises the dead.

And finally, my mother is quite the New Age-woman, and while I do not believe what she does, I don't view her negatively. Just like I don't view you negatively for your faith, Philipvs.

[Centurion1]

Your somewhat slow witted and dull aren't you my boy. Must be all that snow. Even your Gods were simple beings... just because you can't accept something and think its all a big lie doesn't mean it is. Nor does it mean that for believing it they must be ignorant buffons or liars. If anyone is being simpleminded its you for having such a closeted narrow view of the world and your fellow man.

[HoreTore]

Your somewhat slow witted and dull aren't you my boy. Must be all that snow. Even your Gods were simple beings... just because you can't accept something and think its all a big lie doesn't mean it is. Nor does it mean that for believing it they must be ignorant buffons or liars. If anyone is being simpleminded its you for having such a closeted narrow view of the world and your fellow man.

I'm a little confused here....

Are you suggesting that it's possible for people to be raised from the dead?

Edit: and please, do look over your post before you submit it. When you include so many derogative terms about me, it gets quite hard to grasp your actual point.

[Greyblades]

As for me thinking you're "evil", that's just silly.

He's not? Crap, Once again I bought a DIY Exorcism kit for nothing.

[Fragony]

He's not? Crap, Once again I bought a DIY Exorcism kit for nothing.

Heh, back in school we used to give presents to eachother at 'Sinterklaas', our version of Santa Claus. Sounds the same? Yes it does. Anyway, names go on ballot, and out of everyone I got my religion teacher. So I bought him a hammer and some nails and called it a stigmata-kit. I have no idea why but he knew it was me

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Evil? I created this thread because I'm having trouble finding an explanation for this behaviour. And for the record, "evil" isn't one of my assumptions, try "con artist" instead. Or "blinded by faith". As for me thinking you're "evil", that's just silly.

I haven't commented on your "miracle"(or whatever it was), have I? I have noted that you don't believe they raised the dead, and as such you don't believe anything I would call absurd. The "smaller miracles" are quite different to the outrageous ones like raising the dead. The motivations of those believing in one but not the other is obviously quite different to the ones believing god raises the dead.

And finally, my mother is quite the New Age-woman, and while I do not believe what she does, I don't view her negatively. Just like I don't view you negatively for your faith, Philipvs.

I'm sorry - I don't really buy it. The way you talk about religious people indicates a great deal of loathing. Not that that measn you're lying to me, you could just as easily be lying to yourself.

Never assume malice when stupidity is a simpler explanation, but you always seem to anyway.

[Sarmatian]

That's just because religious people believe in God. If it weren't for that, I'd be totally ok with religious people.

Unless they believe in Thor. Thor's cool and then it's okay.

[HoreTore]

I'm sorry - I don't really buy it. The way you talk about religious people indicates a great deal of loathing. Not that that measn you're lying to me, you could just as easily be lying to yourself.

Never assume malice when stupidity is a simpler explanation, but you always seem to anyway.

There's not much for me to say to that, really.

Anyway, you seem to be under the impression that I regard "lying cheats" as a bad/evil. I don't. I don't have I holy book saying that lying is bad. Saying the missionaries are lying cheats is not a moral judgement that they're bad people. Instead, I am much more interested in knowing what motivates them to lie, and how they rationalize their lie with their supposed gods damnation of such acts.

[HoreTore]

What he's saying is that sometimes people end up in a comatose state with very weak vitals, and can be mistakenly declared dead while in such a state; if and when they recover - especially if it's while in a morgue - it appears as though that individual has "returned from the dead".

As in, without explicit intent to deceive - when it's this sort of situation, at least.

So, that brings the missionaries up from "lying cheats" to "ignorant idiots". Assuming, of course, that they have no clue as to what's going on and turn to god to explain what they are too dumb to do(as well as being too dumb to seek help).

Now, I do not have educational statistics on western missionaries, but my impression is that they range from educated to very educated. Not ignorant. And their backers, the ones who read their reports, certainly contain a fair amount of highly educated people, including medical staff. And yet, knowing the truth, they still choose to spread the obvious lies.

Sorry, I'm sticking with "lying cheats" over "ignorant idiots".

[Husar]

So, that brings the missionaries up from "lying cheats" to "ignorant idiots". Assuming, of course, that they have no clue as to what's going on and turn to god to explain what they are too dumb to do(as well as being too dumb to seek help).

Now, I do not have educational statistics on western missionaries, but my impression is that they range from educated to very educated. Not ignorant. And their backers, the ones who read their reports, certainly contain a fair amount of highly educated people, including medical staff. And yet, knowing the truth, they still choose to spread the obvious lies.

Sorry, I'm sticking with "lying cheats" over "ignorant idiots".

You can explain your world however you want, freedom of belief applies to you as well, however dogmatic you want to be, it's okay.

Then again you may be a lying cheat sent by the devil, knowing very well that these missionaries fully believe what they say, yet portray them as evil fraudsters. Now that I think about it you couldn't possibly believe in that much human evil, after all you're a teacher and you should know a lot about humanity, so I'm going to stick with "agent of the devil" over "seriously concerned citizen".

[HoreTore]

Does "agent of the devil" come with some sort of uniform?

If so, I'm definitely sold!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Does "agent of the devil" come with some sort of uniform?

If so, I'm definitely sold!

Yup, naked except for a pair of goat-skin chaps.

[Major Robert Dump]

How come everytime someone brings up negatives about Nigeria, someone brings black people into the issue? I bet none of you here have ever even been to Nigeria. There's whites and asians all over the place there, not to mention a rich Chinese Amish community and a Peurto Rican slum.