The ban on Holocaust denial is crap

[johnhughthom]

Join Date: 13/08/12.

Rather uncalled for, I thought it was clear he meant he'd been lurking, before signing up to post his opinion here. Are you insinuating his opinion is invalid due to his sign up date?

[Beskar]

Rather uncalled for, I thought it was clear he meant he'd been lurking, before signing up to post his opinion here. Are you insinuating his opinion is invalid due to his sign up date?

I am implying that the particular statement is disingenuous. As I know you are aware of, the name implies that assertion. "Thechicken", using the slang-usage of "cowardice" as the user in question refrained from posting on their actual account, thereby giving a self-description of the purpose and nature of the account. Either way, I responded to the opinions on their own validity regardless. I was merely stating "No need to pretend".

Though you know this and couldn't resist the opportunity for an underhanded cheap-shot as per usual.

[johnhughthom]

Underhanded? I resent that, I never try to hide the fact they are cheap shots.

[thechicken]

Join Date: 13/08/12

Is that the standard greeting for new members?

False argument. There is no outlawing of "anything controversial" and Holocaust Denial is pretty much ignoring the volume of evidence from every party involved (Allies, USSR, Nazi themselves) in order persuade the discussion of white-supremacy ideology to be more socially acceptable. It is usually associated with a string of statements that clearly "hate speech" and provides no constructive arguments to any logical debates.

Well holocaust denial is controversial and the administrators here have outlawed it. So no, I am afraid it is not a false argument.

I am not actually discussing holocaust denial or whether I believe in it or not. The thread was about the administrators outlawing controversial subjects such as holocaust denial.

Any arguments or points related to the holocaust are acceptable. Just an expressive viewpoint which is devoid from reality is illegal in a number of countries which end of the day, isn't a loss.

The best thing you can do is set up a shit load of accounts and do all of the posting yourself ok?

Do you believe 9/11 didn't happen?

If you establish a set of rules on what is true and what is false according to you and a small group of people, then what is there left to talk about? Who exactly set you up as an authority? You may as well throw 9/11 in there as well, there is no point in having a rule like this just for holocaust denial.

Feel free to join the 101 Debates on Religion in the Backroom.

Thanks for the offer but no thanks, I have no real interest in your particular brand of censored discussion.

As I know you are aware of, the name implies that assertion. "Thechicken", using the slang-usage of "cowardice" as the user in question refrained from posting on their actual account, thereby giving a self-description of the purpose and nature of the account.

Now that is funny, you got a serious paranoia issue there. Got nothing better to do than investigate the accounts of new members? Too many mod panel tools and too much time on your hands huh? I don't have an 'actual account' on this site, except this one, I'm not sure what you're referring to there? If you're referring to my use of tor. I ALWAYS use tor, is that against belgian law now as well? Some people in certain countries use it for very good reasons, I will not defend that. Don't like it? ban it.

Either way, I responded to the opinions on their own validity regardless. I was merely stating "No need to pretend".

You are going to great lengths to defend your actions, but only come across as an arrogant self assured asshole.

Though you know this and couldn't resist the opportunity for an underhanded cheap-shot as per usual.

All of the under handed cheap shots have come from your direction.

Anyway, this place totally sucks, I will see what the total war center has to offer.

kthxbai

[Hooahguy]

So does this mean truth1337 is unbanned?

[Vuk]

My 2 cents:
I think free speech is important, and as we allow people to deny the Armenian genocide, white-wash communist attrocities world-wide, express sympathy for terrorists (and we got quite a few of those here), it does not make sense to pick and choose which unpopular and potentially insulting opinions will be allowed. There are plenty of wackos out there, and the best thing that can be done is for people to prove that they are wacko by allowing them to post their wacko opinions and people providing proof that they are indeed wacko.
The problem is worse when certain things are censored, because then reasonable discussion always gets grouped in with the wackiness, and legitimate opinions, backed by evidence are not allowed.

That is why I am glad for what Secura said. That said though, I can definitely understand Andres' concern. (Damn, that doesn't the government realise that brutal censorship was the first step in Nazi take over?)

Another thing that people don't think about is that a lot of people spouting their loony opinions are not loony people. They can be quite intelligent, good people who have been raised the wrong way or fallen in with idiots and brainwashed. Good, open discussion with people who disagree with them can do wonders for making them see the light. Look what it did to PJ! He went from Quasi-Neo Nazi to normal person due to discussion of the issues with normal people. He was never a bad guy, but just had some poorly informed beliefs.

[drone]

So does this mean truth1337 is unbanned?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...inite-Bannings

[Andres]

Hi I'm a long time lurker (mainly interested in rome 2) and while reading just saw this thread and could not resist posting my opinion here.

Hello and welcome, thechicken Glad to see you finally got to registering, allthough perhaps not for the most pleasant reasons

I checked out the domain registration for this site and it looks like it's registered to 'atomic gamer', they appear to be the hosts and are not based in belgium, are you affiliated with them? If not and you are only a volunteer admin on this site then I do not see what you have got to stress about.

I'm a Belgian citizen. The CGKR (the centre of equal chances and fighting of racism, roughly translated) states on their own website that they have the authority to even attack foreign based sites, but they do admit that most foreign countries don't give suit on Belgian judgements (e.g. the US will never execute a Belgian judgement based on the law against holocaust denial). So, the .Org is not at stake here.

I myself, however, am a Belgian citizen. I already said it's a stretch and the risk is minimal, but I also know how zealous the people of the CGKR can sometimes be and I'm not taking any risks when it comes to this sort of legislation. Not only is it a criminal law, but simply being accused of accomodating for holocaust deniers is a stain on my reputation and might ruin my future career. Don't get me wrong: I don't like doing this, at all. But I have other responsibilities besides being an .Org admin, so I don't take any risks. Period.

Sorry to be direct and I do not mean this as any insult, but if you think the site needs to be run according to belgian law, just to protect your own interests, then the best thing you can do is let someone else take over as the admin.

I have considered it. And if most people here want to be able to discuss Holocaust denial on the fora, then I'll gladly step down. I don't consider the .Org my property, I'm just a volunteer offering help.

As to the ban on holocaust denial, may as well shut down the back room forum if you are going restrict free speech to that extent. I am not seeing the point in a forum for controversial threads if you are going to outlaw anything controversial. Some people have different whacked out ideas to others, there are people who believe there is a man in the sky who's son was nailed to a cross and there are those who believe that is garbage.

That is true, but so far, only holocaust denial and hate speech are outlawed here. "Hate speech" has never been an issue here, since racism and the likes has always been against .Org rules.

Nothing much changes. But saying "the holocaust didn't happen, it are all lies, it's a conspiracy, etc." can't.

For example the perspectives on an event like 9/11 are very different depending on where in the world you come from or were born. Do you also propose a ban on any version of this except the accepted western version?

You are on a slippery slope.

That's up to the people running the BR, but a ban on a different version on that event doesn't seem necessary to me.

[Lemur]

You may as well throw 9/11 in there as well, there is no point in having a rule like this just for holocaust denial.

Translation: If there isn't a slippery slope handy, I will construct one using a slide, duct tape, lubricant and the garage.

This is not a slippery slope. The Org is not careening toward NewSpeak and ThoughtCrime. We do not have a long, rich history of Holocaust Denial threads that need protecting. More, as several have pointed out, we're all free to debate aspects of the Holocaust; we're just not free to declare it never happened. Which, given the vast amount of documents, eyewitnesses, films and firsthand accounts, is no great sacrifice.

We accommodate Birthers, Truthers, Royalists, Flat Earthers, Biblical Literalists, Freemasons, Area 51/Roswell fans, Second Amendment absolutists, vegans, Paultards, Dittoheads, Randians, and crazy cat ladies. All without trouble. For an admin to specify one take on one topic that is out of bounds? Not Orwellian.

[Vuk]

Translation: If there isn't a slippery slope handy, I will construct one using a slide, duct tape, lubricant and the garage.

This is not a slippery slope. The Org is not careening toward NewSpeak and ThoughtCrime. We do not have a long, rich history of Holocaust Denial threads that need protecting. More, as several have pointed out, we're all free to debate aspects of the Holocaust; we're just not free to declare it never happened. Which, given the vast amount of documents, eyewitnesses, films and firsthand accounts, is no great sacrifice.

We accommodate Birthers, Truthers, Royalists, Flat Earthers, Biblical Literalists, Freemasons, Area 51/Roswell fans, Second Amendment absolutists, vegans, Paultards, Dittoheads, Randians, and crazy cat ladies. All without trouble. For an admin to specify one take on one topic that is out of bounds? Not Orwellian.

Yes, we should be able to deny it happened. It would make you and idiot who is arguing against history, but the same can be said for many opinions held by idiots on this board.

The Great Flood did not happen. The Earth is flat. Bush planned 9/11. The Holocaust never happened. The Tea Party is a dangerous militant group. Communism is no longer a threat. I have a vagina.

All are arguments that intense historical research over years, decades, or centuries does not support, yet we are free to say all of them except the third. Are you afraid of insulting a potential 90+ year old who is viewing this forum? Then why do we allow people to deny the genocide that the Croatians commited against the Serbians through the years? (some just as recently as the 90s)
It is a discussion forum, and if you cannot handle discussion and views that you find offensive, then you shouldn't go to the Backroom. Why single this one historical event out and make such a big deal about it? Do you know how many other horid events happened in human history that people are perfectly free to deny? Some things even more horrible. Other nearly as horrible on a personal level, but on a much larger scale. It makes no sense to make such a big deal out of this one thing. Let the wackos come out of the closet, and let everyone else see them for who they are. The market regulates itself. Society is perfectly capable of ignoring these people or schooling them without the government banning them (an analogy for the moderators on this forum).

[Hooahguy]

Regardless of what you believe you must accept the reality that in some places its illegal and as such you must respect that, since by not doing so it may put fellow Orgahs at risk.

[Montmorency]

Yes, we should be able to deny it happened. It would make you and idiot who is arguing against history, but the same can be said for many opinions held by idiots on this board.

The Great Flood did not happen. The Earth is flat. Bush planned 9/11. The Holocaust never happened. The Tea Party is a dangerous militant group. Communism is no longer a threat. I have a vagina.

All are arguments that intense historical research over years, decades, or centuries does not support, yet we are free to say all of them except the third. Are you afraid of insulting a potential 90+ year old who is viewing this forum? Then why do we allow people to deny the genocide that the Croatians commited against the Serbians through the years? (some just as recently as the 90s)
It is a discussion forum, and if you cannot handle discussion and views that you find offensive, then you shouldn't go to the Backroom. Why single this one historical event out and make such a big deal about it? Do you know how many other horid events happened in human history that people are perfectly free to deny? Some things even more horrible. Other nearly as horrible on a personal level, but on a much larger scale. It makes no sense to make such a big deal out of this one thing. Let the wackos come out of the closet, and let everyone else see them for who they are. The market regulates itself. Society is perfectly capable of ignoring these people or schooling them without the government banning them (an analogy for the moderators on this forum).

This is a correct post, surely.

[johnhughthom]

This discussion is pretty much going round in circles. For me Andres not being in even the slightest danger of being taken to court and remaining admin here trumps unlikely to occur hypothetical free speech situations any day of the week.

[a completely inoffensive name]

[thechicken]

Ok last attempt before I throw the towel in. I told myself not to, but there is some pretty funny stuff here.

Translation: If there isn't a slippery slope handy, I will construct one using a slide, duct tape, lubricant and the garage.

No translation needed, it is how I posted it: A slippery slope. Like I said, I guess it is better if the mod guys do all the posting, saves confusion, rules are followed, it is one of those win win things all round huh?

You can apply your holocaust denial ruling/amendment to 9 11 the armenian genocide and pretty much every war, massacre or controversial event in the history of the world. If you are going to have this 'proven fact according to westerners so do not question it' rule, it makes your super special back room forum worthless, but I bet you do not see it that way?

More, as several have pointed out, we're all free to debate aspects of the Holocaust; we're just not free to declare it never happened.

LOL!

And this andres guy is still full of angst about getting sued and posting the same diatribe again? Seriously look at yourselves W...T... F............... talk about making a mountain out of an ant hill!

Yes, we should be able to deny it happened. It would make you and idiot who is arguing against history, but the same can be said for many opinions held by idiots on this board.

The Great Flood did not happen. The Earth is flat. Bush planned 9/11. The Holocaust never happened. The Tea Party is a dangerous militant group. Communism is no longer a threat. I have a vagina.

All are arguments that intense historical research over years, decades, or centuries does not support, yet we are free to say all of them except the third. Are you afraid of insulting a potential 90+ year old who is viewing this forum? Then why do we allow people to deny the genocide that the Croatians commited against the Serbians through the years? (some just as recently as the 90s)
It is a discussion forum, and if you cannot handle discussion and views that you find offensive, then you shouldn't go to the Backroom. Why single this one historical event out and make such a big deal about it? Do you know how many other horid events happened in human history that people are perfectly free to deny? Some things even more horrible. Other nearly as horrible on a personal level, but on a much larger scale. It makes no sense to make such a big deal out of this one thing. Let the wackos come out of the closet, and let everyone else see them for who they are. The market regulates itself. Society is perfectly capable of ignoring these people or schooling them without the government banning them (an analogy for the moderators on this forum).

Makes a lot of sense fella, but I am sure your leaders here will explain to you just how wrong you are very shortly.

LOL! seriously this is the best laugh I had all day but I really should go now, over and out.

[Sigurd]

Why the hell do we need to adhere to "free speech" in the first place?

So the buzzer got kicked off our local curb by the resident shop keeper with a clear message of "bugger off, get yerself to another street corner with your bollocks".
I don't see the inherent problem here. This is a site for totalwar fans - to primarily read and discuss totalwar games.

[Andres]

No translation needed, it is how I posted it: A slippery slope. Like I said, I guess it is better if the mod guys do all the posting, saves confusion, rules are followed, it is one of those win win things all round huh?

You can apply your holocaust denial ruling/amendment to 9 11 the armenian genocide and pretty much every war, massacre or controversial event in the history of the world. If you are going to have this 'proven fact according to westerners so do not question it' rule, it makes your super special back room forum worthless, but I bet you do not see it that way?


LOL!

And this andres guy is still full of angst about getting sued and posting the same diatribe again? Seriously look at yourselves W...T... F............... talk about making a mountain out of an ant hill!

You're the one making a mountain out of an ant hill here.

Nothing has changed except that Holocaust denial being specifically labeled as "not allowed". One could argue if Holocaust denial in the style done by truth1337 wasn't already violating our general forum rules, but that's a different question.

The reason for specifically banning Holocaust denial is clear: risk that yours truly gets into trouble with his own national authorities because of his national law. It's a very, very small risk, I grant you that. But I don't want to take it, because I have a wife and kid and aim to exercise a profession that requires a completely stainless reputation and clean sheet. That's the only reason. It's not banned because it fits the personal opinions of staff; in fact, I didn't consult with my staff about this, not even with my fellow Admins; I acted alone and it's my decision alone, so there's no need to blame all moderators and other staff because of this. If you insist on blaming someone for the discomfort this decision causes, then blame me and only me; nobody else. Your insinuations about all staff that is not Andres are incorrect and false. You're entitled to hold your opinion that I'm placing my personal interests above those of the site and that I should step down because of it.

I apologise for the possible inconvenience this decision may cause, but it will stand and won't be altered.

[drone]

Personally, I think laws against Holocaust denial are stupid and misguided. It's way more fun to point and laugh at the machinations of the racists. That being said, the Org has never been a full free speech zone. We already have topics that are forbidden, and some of them are forbidden for legal reasons (they would get us in trouble). This is no different.

[Papewaio]

Patrons are asked to self moderate themselves.

Mr Elite Truths statements would be considered Holcaust Denial which can trigger problems for members in Belgium and Germany. Considering one of our current admins is a Belgium resident, a previous one is German and Tosa will always be a part of the Netherlands where he lays in rest... We have quite a few patrons who are law abiding citizens and administrators who are held accountable for the overall tone and actions of the Org.

Andres approach was a surgical strike on the problematic issue at hand. My approach that I've unsuccessfully argued for was more akin to castration with a pair of bricks. I have lobbied for a more broader approach that would make such a topic banned under more general terms.

Andres approach creates a self contained event and follows the Orgs approach to copyright and piracy. You can discuss piracy at the Org, you cannot however commit piracy at the Org. You can discuss the Holocaust, it's facts and figures, you can discuss Holocaust Denial, you cannot however commit Holocaust Denial at the Org.

=][=

Vuk these have been some of the wisest posts I've seen from you. Keep bringing your A game to the backroom.

thechicken you've made some good posts, riled a few feathers, and touched up the paranoid. You are a natural for the Backroom. Also you might want to increase your post count to post length ratio as posts in a Watchtower don't count. I'm sure your posts and eloquence will find some worthy adversaries amongst the patrons.

[SoFarSoGood]

Nothing to add to the above really. The ban is stupid but the ban exists in some countries where people may get into get into trouble for permitting it to be broken. I disagree with it as freedom of speech is golden but my dispute is NOT with the admins but with the Parliaments in the countries they reside in.

[Andres]

Nothing to add to the above really.

I concur

Closed.