This is why I think Zionism in its current form is so dangerous

[gaelic cowboy]

Modern day Jews are the only people in the Near East or Europe who still worship the same ancestral God they did 2,500-3,000 years ago.

Well using your own logic on permanance of belief I am sure Zoroastrians might have something to say about it.

Also don't modern day Jews actually worship a different God to the Gods the Jews worshipped 3000 yrs ago, or at least they have forgotten that there praying to a God of war from a polytheistic faith.

[Beskar]

Also Hindu faith is the oldest organised religion, dating 7000 years, I believe.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There are still some Samaritans around. Almost extinct, though.

Samaritans are heretical Jews, in the literal sense, so they are newer

Well using your own logic on permanance of belief I am sure Zoroastrians might have something to say about it.Also don't modern day Jews actually worship a different God to the Gods the Jews worshipped 3000 yrs ago, or at least they have forgotten that there praying to a God of war from a polytheistic faith.

Ah - but Zoroastrianism is no longer intrinsically linked to Persian identity and hasn't been for a millennium, and there's some debate about the exact place of Zoroastor the Prophet in Persian identity even before the coming of Islam.Dates are also somewhat equivocal, it's hard to say whether worship of El-Yahweh predates the exile or not. Which leads me into your final point, quite by accident, the concept of "Polytheism" is very slippery, when you ask "Are Jews Polytheistic before Babylon" you are asking an anachronistic question - what we do no is that the Jews only ever acknowledged one God as Supreme - El. El's rule was undisputed, and it then becomes a very difficult question as to whether you consider the beings under Him "Gods" or "Angels".Never a Polytheistic "War God" though - El means "The Lord", i.e. THE Lord, of everything.

Also Hindu faith is the oldest organised religion, dating 7000 years, I believe.

The earliest texts date back that far - but I am unclear if the theology is even similar. There is an argument in Hinduism over whether it is a Polytheistic or Monotheistic faith. Monotheism is being rejected as "Westernisation" in some quarters.In any case - I said "Europe and the Near East", I deliberately excluded India for just the reason that I know almost nothing about it.

[Moros]

Yahweh as a god existed before the Persian and Babylonic times, but at this point he wasn't a monotheïstic god. On the contrary he even is evidenced to have a wife (can't remember the name at the moment) at this time. The religion kept very much changing afterwards still and it isn't untill the late ancient age/early medieval age we get a somewhat consistent religion that is comparable with the current one.

I have a great article on that laying around at college, but I'm at home now so can't look up. But I can some time this week, if you want some more information on the development of Jewish religion and identity. Though that may be off-topic.

Edit: Yahwah's wife apparantly was called Asherah (thank you google).

[Fragony]

Yahweh as a god existed before the Persian and Babylonic times, but at this point he wasn't a monotheïstic god. On the contrary he even is evidenced to have a wife (can't remember the name at the moment) at this time. The religion kept very much changing afterwards still and it isn't untill the late ancient age/early medieval age we get a somewhat consistent religion that is comparable with the current one.

I have a great article on that laying around at college, but I'm at home now so can't look up. But I can some time this week, if you want some more information on the development of Jewish religion and identity. Though that may be off-topic.

I'd like to read that one

[Moros]

I'd like to read that one

I'll try to pass it on, but it might take a week or two before I have time and am able to get it in Leuven.

[lars573]

The earliest texts date back that far - but I am unclear if the theology is even similar. There is an argument in Hinduism over whether it is a Polytheistic or Monotheistic faith. Monotheism is being rejected as "Westernisation" in some quarters.In any case - I said "Europe and the Near East", I deliberately excluded India for just the reason that I know almost nothing about it.

Hindu theology is fluid, changing over the eons. And you also get the usual divergent beliefs between god cults. When someone posted some audio of Buddhist lectures a while ago the lecturer described Indian religion as Orthopraxy rather than Orthodoxy. That is ritual is far more important than theological belief.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yahweh as a god existed before the Persian and Babylonic times, but at this point he wasn't a monotheïstic god. On the contrary he even is evidenced to have a wife (can't remember the name at the moment) at this time. The religion kept very much changing afterwards still and it isn't untill the late ancient age/early medieval age we get a somewhat consistent religion that is comparable with the current one.

I have a great article on that laying around at college, but I'm at home now so can't look up. But I can some time this week, if you want some more information on the development of Jewish religion and identity. Though that may be off-topic.

Edit: Yahwah's wife apparantly was called Asherah (thank you google).

Yes, Yahweh is recorded as having a wife, or perhaps it it is the wife of El, as Yahweh and El were originally distinct entities (Yahweh was the intercessor between Men and El in one version).

I confess to not being especially interested - I don't buy into the "Polytheistic into Monotheistic after Babylon" argument, largely because the current version of the theory states that the Jews abandoned all their Gods but El/Yahweh, which makes little logical sense.

If your Gods have failed you, why keep their King? No, you get rid of all of them and you adopt better Gods, usually the ones that beat your God.

No, I think there was always a strand of monotheism in Judaic theology, albeit a minority one, and it came of age after the Jewish state was virtually destroyed by the Babylonians

Hindu theology is fluid, changing over the eons. And you also get the usual divergent beliefs between god cults. When someone posted some audio of Buddhist lectures a while ago the lecturer described Indian religion as Orthopraxy rather than Orthodoxy. That is ritual is far more important than theological belief.

Which is a way of saying it's not really the same religion it was 500 years ago, let alone 3,000.

"Orthopraxy" is an interesting term though, that sounds like pre-Reformation Catholicism.

[Moros]

Yes, Yahweh is recorded as having a wife, or perhaps it it is the wife of El, as Yahweh and El were originally distinct entities (Yahweh was the intercessor between Men and El in one version).

I confess to not being especially interested - I don't buy into the "Polytheistic into Monotheistic after Babylon" argument, largely because the current version of the theory states that the Jews abandoned all their Gods but El/Yahweh, which makes little logical sense.

If your Gods have failed you, why keep their King? No, you get rid of all of them and you adopt better Gods, usually the ones that beat your God.

No, I think there was always a strand of monotheism in Judaic theology, albeit a minority one, and it came of age after the Jewish state was virtually destroyed by the Babylonians

Well I'm not too fond of the idea that because of the Babylon exile (can't come up with the correct word for a reason , guess it's just too late) people forsake those gods because of it. I'd assume it was slower evolution and at most points there'll have been multiple ideas/theologies current. Which I think is the rather the rule anyway. I think Yahweh took on some of the characteristics of El and slowly perhaps took his role and replaced them. It's something that happened at least with other Semitic gods, for a variety of reasons. Perhaps even got the wife passed down. Possibly El and Jahwah both had Ashera as a wife at the same time, but at different communities/places/ethnicities/... Things get borrowed, assimilated, discarded,... in religion and during such long periods and less connected communities and all that makes for a complicated and not unilinear evolution. Monolaterism was probably an earlier step to take before monotheism and I'd actually doubt this idea originated from the jews themselves, not only because earlier examples are known, but exactly one is known from Babylon. If messianism wasn't something that came to be much later (hellenistic age), we'd even have a stronger case. Of course there could have been other or perhaps there were multiple external influences for Monolaterism or monotheism. If I only had the time to read up on the subject as it does interest me somewhat how the 'big religions' came to be, or rather how clearly they are a product of their own society, their problems, their external influences and all.

[Sigurd]

I did a study on Asherah or Arstarte as we call her.
She was undeniably worshiped by the Israelites up to the Deuteronomical purging.

Just look in Kings where Elijah contents with the priests of Baal, there is also a mention of the priests of the groves (groves should be substituted with Ashera in KJ).
Elijah has all of the priests of Baal killed, but leaves the priests of Asherah alone.

They seem to have planted groves or asheras in the temple up to several times. Interestingly Asherah was the wife of El, mother of Yahweh in both the early Isralite and Canaanite religions. She was worshiped as (the) a tree of life, hence the grove ref.

When God put Adam and Eve out of the garden, he put cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life, so that they would not take of its fruit and live forever in their sin.
Eternal life was also the fruit of the loin of Asherah the mother of God (A Saviour).
I also find it interesting that the Virgin Mary has been idolized more or less the same way as Asherah pre-deuteronomical reform. The fruit of the loins of Mary will give eternal life if you partake of it. Is this not the Christian mantra?
I could nearly put an equation between Mary and Asherah. The mixup between El and Yahweh is specially interesting in the Trinity discussion.

Asherah is also considered the wisdom you find in the “wisdom literature” in the the Old Testament.

Some scholars suggest that the Jews still have an Asherah in their worship, the 7 armed candlebaum, the Menorah. The meaning of the menorah is related to both Wisdom and a tree. Anciently its stylizm was that of an almond tree, noted by its purity and whiteness. The Almond tree – archaic greek: amygdale which is borrowed from the Hebrew em gedolah which interprets Great Mother.

Third edit: I keep remembering stuff.
There is an interesting reference in a book called Egyptian Tales and Romances (p 280). Apparently a translation of a coptic text: The Revelations of St. Paul
It states:

And He showed me the tree of life and by it was a revolvingred-hot sword. And a Virgin appeared by the tree... and the angel told me she was Mary, the mother of Christ.